The descriptor, “clairvoyant,” used to be one of the ways Elizabeth Clare Prophet was billed when appearing on panels or talk shows in the ’70s and ’80s.As a child, I remember first seeing the word clairvoyant and wondering what it might mean. Originally I thought it was wordplay on her middle name. When I found out the actual definition, I remember trying to wrap my head around how my mother would read auras or ‘know’ about things other people couldn’t see. As it turns out, my childhood skepticism served me well. Clairvoyance is pseudoscience. Despite people’s wish to believe, it does not exist. Not for her–not for anyone.
Few people consider the implications of true clairvoyance: It would completely rewrite the laws of physics. Knowledge of the future would violate free will and causality. Knowledge of the hidden could change the course of history. Think Pearl Harbor, 9/11, or the atrocities in Mumbai. No government could afford to be without armies of clairvoyants. Think of the lives that could have been saved had a clairvoyant warned of the impending Indian Ocean tsunami. If clairvoyance existed, we would live in a totally different world.
Of all the interesting connections I’ve made with readers, few have been as startling or gratifying as a series of recent comments from Harry S., former CUT board member and longtime companion and confidante of my mother. As Harry explains, he was also one of the dozen or so people she used over the years to do her frequent spiritual “clearance” work. Once she became a young adult, my sister Erin also filled that role, as she described in Prophet’s Daughter. What makes Harry’s story unique is his close access and knowledge of mom’s inner struggles well before she revealed them to Erin. He both confirms and elaborates on Erin’s account. He was there when ECP (as “Padma Sambhava”) decided to announce that she had balanced 100% of her karma (a totally incoherent concept) and had advised her against doing so. He also watched her struggle with her inability to perform the feats she claimed. In the following paragraphs, he reveals the startling fact:
She was spiritually blind! She had no inner sight and she knew it–it was all a facade.
In Harry’s own words:
i can attest to the fact that ECP was plagued with the ironic awareness that despite her position as messenger and despite her frequent tirades about staff being out of alignment for this or that reason, she was decidedly lacking the direct ability to “see” on the inner planes. This may be very hard for people to understand, but it was at the root of many of her lashings and thrashings of staff and others, as a defense mechanism for her own inability to perceive the subtle vibrations which were so fundamental to her teachings and role as authority, messenger, guru, and executor of discipline. I think Erin also mentions this in her book. Why else would ECP need Stanley, and myself, and Erin, and several others over the years to act as “seer” if she herself was able to “see”? This lack of inner seeing silently drove her to depths of despair, but she could never reveal this deep unfathomable secret to the followers. She had a layer of denial about her own inability in this regard lest the facade come tumbling down, but i was aware that she was aware of this fact. [emphasis added]
She was a master at portraying her supposed ability to detect any and all infractions or past lives or improper vibrations in the auras of others, but in reality it was for the most part her intellect and not direct vision which ruled those innumerable moments when she would act as though she was the all-seeing messenger. How, one might ask, can the Messenger perform the fundamental duties of taking dictations and being the mouthpiece of the masters, if her own “third eye” was not open to the inner planes? This is one of the many reasons she was tormented and paranoid and often given to fits of depression or states of megalomania. I am sure this will shock many who might read it, and seem impossible and not true, but this is what I came to understand.. One who is still a follower of CUT might argue that the Messenger while taking a dictation just needs to be the transparent “vehicle” and mouthpiece of the master, and need not be clairvoyant while taking the dictation and speaking the words. Mark spoke of the type of dictation where he “saw” the words in fire like a ticker tape in front of his inner vision, but ECP had a different experience and method which was not direct vision, and in my opinion she spoke the words and concepts which she imagined the master might speak if she were actually able to perform the function she was cast in, as messenger. Outrageus blasphemy? or painful truth to those of us who were enraptured before we managed to leave the fold.
Harry continues:
Aside from my other roles as staff member, board member, confidante and intimate partner of ECP, although i did not ask for it, seek it, intentionally train for it, or want it, i came to be appointed and annointed into the role of seer for ECP. The fact that ECP used a few selected people in this role was kept secret and very few knew of this process, except for the most inner of the inner circle, and family. I certainly knew it was not meant for public consumption, and was by its very nature, a confidential relationship of the most profound order. It carried the inherent gigantic irony which i mentioned the other day, that the messenger herself used others to perceive what she knew she could not perceive through her own senses.
This role gradually grew from ongoing conversation on a wide range of subjects, to formal sessions where we would sit together in private, where she would say something and ask what i saw. This happened right before dictations, as the congregation was “building the forcefield” and she had already been dressed and the time had come to walk out and do it. In those heightened moments, we sat together and she would bring up the most far and wide subjects, sometimes about staff infractions, sometimes about world events, sometimes on a subject she (or the master) intended to discuss. Being in that position started out naturally, but became a tremendous burden after a time, because it grew to almost an addiction of hers, It was as if her confidence in the seer became a palliative drug for her secret sense of self-doubt in her own abilities. She taught others adamantly about the error of letting doubt enter one’s being, and for the messenger to harbor doubt in her own capability to perceive subtle realities was beyond and over the edge of acceptabilty for her outer consciousness. And thus when she placed her trust in someone to tell her what was occuring in the domain of the supermundane world, she needed it more and more to support her deficit. I think Erin showed this also to be true in her riveting accounts.
The image comes to mind of a person without sight, a blind person, being led down the street on the arm of someone who is willing to be their guide. A dependence can easily evolve for the comfort of that aid, and although this is not a good metaphor since most blind people are tremendously self sufficient and strong, ECP let her weakness manifest with the use of those in that unique role.
So this preface brings me to the Great Delusion. The ultimate act of self aggrandizement on the part of ECP which elevated her for all time into the lofty position of a perfected being walking the earth, for all her followers to marvel at. She had been brewing inside her mind the idea that she was at the precipice of balancing 100% of her karma. She knew that if that were the case, surely her status would soar to new heights, and her grip on the followers would have a whole new level of adhesion. This concept which germinated within her own world, began to emerge in various words here and there and dropping of a hint and other ways. But then it came down to just me and her. Sitting alone with her, before she walked out before the gathered masses, we enteried into a session where the seer is asked questions by the messenger, and responds with the perceptions that flow into the visual mind space. She went right at the issue and suddenly i was trapped in the mental miasma of her own concoction of greatness…She said the master was going to announce once and for all time, that she had balanced 100% of her karma, and she asked me to confirm this. This was not the first time she mentioned this in passing, but this was the moment of truth. I sat there for a few moments, raising the antenna of perception into space, and i knew the answer to her question with certitude. “NO. I do not see that, and I do not think it is so.” Aside from the sense that this was simply not true, it was beyond just the perception of it…pure logic dictated that this was one of the most stupendous blunders she could make, to proclaim that idea to the followers. It simply was not within the realm of reality that she had become completely free of the entire substance of her past. I saw daily the continuing frailties and foibles and imperfections and holes in the fabric of her being, as did many others who were close enough to observe, and so it just was so far away from what i thought to be the truth. When i told her i did not agree and did not see that this was true, i perceived a shudder within the depths of her being, a recognition that she realized that i was correct and this was a Ploy with a capital P….but her invincible motivation to continually raise the stakes and raise her own apparent position on the planet and amongst the brotherhood, quickly closed the brief opening of awareness of turth, and the cascade of self delusion folded over her mind like a wave and i knew it was hopeless. From that moment on I knew she was going to go through with it, and though she did not argue with my response, she soon thereafter stood up and proceeded to walk out there and spew forth the fabrication of her own inner delusion,
This episode set a new tone between us….she knew i was not going to crack under even the most intense expectation and subtle coercion. So silently she respected that but was wary because almost nobody would ever question something of this magnitude. And the weight of the role of seer grew to monumental proportions, for me. It carried out into everyday life, when in the car, when at home, when at any moment, day or night, no matter where we were, she could and would expect me to immediately tell her what i saw in the inner world about something she just asked or said. I was expected to have one foot on the earth and one foot in the higher world, always ready to capture the vision of what was going on in those places where she could not see for herself. I even told her on several occasions that it was too much to expect that i could instantaneously and without flaw respond to her every query which would have required me to be sitting as an ascetic in some cave, not driving the big car down the road and at the same time look into the metaphysical world. But it was her nature to need it and want it and depend upon it, since she was increasingly making claims about herself and the movement which she felf warranted confirmation from someone outside herself.
Delusion followed delusion, and for me it spun out of control where i saw too closely what was really going on, and it was not a pretty sight. It was the vision of one who was deluded and delusional, but was willing despite her close confidantes, to go forward with claims and proclamations that at some place in her being she knew to be false.
In retrospect, it is clear to me that it was the stress of keeping up of with the appearance of her spiritual abilities which led to her chronic insomnia. I always wondered about the insomnia. It made sense to me that spiritual advancement would lead to inner peace. Or something resembling it. Instead, the bigger the organization grew, the more “opposition” she claimed to encounter. If decrees worked, I reasoned, the more people who decreed, the safer, happier and more at peace she should be. After all, she was building a bigger organization to do the “Lord’s” work–she deserved the full measure of the “Lord’s” protection–including for her psyche. Couldn’t Archangel Michael spare his servant this level of inner torment? Instead, her success seemed to have the opposite effect.
For several years in the late 1970s, she had to be driven around the back roads of Los Angeles all night in her tour bus so she could sleep. That was way before cell phones–I knew if I wanted to see her or ask her a question, I had to look for the “gold bus.” It was a little ritual for me to check and see if she was on the premises. After a while, she established a 24-hour personal prayer (decree) “tag,” often with half a dozen people decreeing in a utility closet or on the bus or wherever they could find to be near her and yet out of the way. Interesting how they had to be nearby–spiritual energy wouldn’t seem to be location-dependent. Still, the muffled hum of rhythmic voices in nearby rooms was ever-present for our family. And even that wasn’t enough. Eventually, she rented a series of houses directly on the beach in Malibu. She loved the sound and smell of the ocean and she seemed to sleep better there. But everyone on permanent staff knew she had this problem, and it never fully went away. It seemed to be worst during conferences, especially in the later years. It was passed off as a symptom of her carrying “world karma.” Kind of like Jesus carrying his cross. Note how the believer rationale glorifies this “noble” masochism. Anyone else would recognize her “cross” for what it was: guilt.
103 comments
thank you for posting this interesting information
the more i learn about ECp an dthe more I realize the crazyness of the whole thing
I feel bad I waisted years for nothing in constant stress, but I also feel bad for her, because in truth she has waisted a whole lifetime for nothing and she was not even happy
I am not so sure about the guilt part, even though it would be nice to think so,
given what I know about cult gurus and their psychology :persons with her condition don’t feel guilt for their overall behaviour, or for hurting others
they might feel bad because of theit inner tensions and personal torments, and feel some regret after psychotic episodes of unlashing anger, because they go through their own violence themselves while doing so, which can be frightening and exhausting,
they might feel bad also because they can’t control themselves and theit social image ,
psychotic people in general are tormented , they are different because of their inner pain, and their body finds “mental illness ” as a survival response
what I know about psychotic people of her type is that they don’t really have a sense of hurting others because they don’t have the sense of others
theit relationship to other human beings is disturbed
it’s hard to comprehend, but it is so
Amina,
What I mean by "guilt" is a sense of being out of integrity with herself and with the truth. It was an embodied contradiction–a corner she had painted herself into. Here’s a snip from the Wikipedia entry on guilt, showing that it has two distinct meanings:
As you pointed out, she was holding a tremendous inner tension of opposites–so I’m speaking about guilt in the Freudian sense: On the one hand, she was seen by many people as a savior and seer who had special gifts and ability to contact personalities beyond the physical. On the other, she knew that she was deficient and could not actually do these things.
Her position mandated regular performances. She was constantly barraged with questions from people asking for direction about things she was not qualified to answer. Her work with seers was an attempt to share that burden.
Clearly she had learned the skill of performing dictations fairly well. Though we know that many of the topics brought up by various "masters" happened to be things she was thinking out in advance of the dictation. This is borne out by my own experience as well as the testimony of Harry S., Erin, and others.
So I would say the guilt was less about how all this was affecting followers than her own basic fear of failing, being found out, and therefore being exposed as a fraud. I think she rationalized her lack of the spiritual sight, and tried to make up for it by working harder.
I will say that she put in some long hours and dedication when it came to writing and interpreting the "teachings." But then again, she was unwilling to face the contradiction between her glaring absence of "clairvoyance," of which she was painfully aware, and her role as "messenger" represented for public consumption. Regardless of their lack of authenticity, as long as she continued to produce a volume of dictations, the purpose was served.
At some point she knew it was a rationalization, that she was not the messenger she was representing herself to be, and that was her "cross" of guilt to bear. Toward the end as she entered therapy, she began to move from Freudian to existential guilt. It’s a shame that didn’t happen sooner. But from my perspective, she had too much at stake.
I think Amina and Sean make profound comments on the inner conflicts which plagued the world of Elizabeth Clare Prohpet. I concur with Amina’s insight into the nature of the guilt which ran silently but powerfully within her psyche. The “tension of oppsosites” drove her ever deeper, over time, into an untenable awareness that the fundamental keynote of her messengership was founded on an almost complete inner blindness. There is a spectrum of sensitivity in people regarding the extent to which they perceive subtle sensations, of mind or emotion or the world outside ourselves. She had concocted from the earliest days as messenger and due to the never ending elevations in spiritual office to which she was “appointed” by the masters, that she had no choice but to perform in the role of clairvoyant, french for “clear seeing.”. She would never use that word directly applied to herself, but she rarely if ever dissuaded others or the public from imagining that “clear seeing” was at the very heart of her ability to fulfill the roles of messenger and the one who performed the clearances, which by their very nature, demanded clear seeing on her part. Very few knew that in orded to perform the ongoing clearances, she either did not perceive the results of her actions, or she required someone at her side to convey in real time what they saw as the action occuring on the inner planes. Can you imagine the stress of those who had to report to her the extent to which her shouted calls and clearances were or were not acting on the source of the problems? When she went into clearance mode, the power of her energy was extreme, and her intense focus on eradicating a problem with staff or negative forces brought heightened expectation on her part that her actions were causing the effects for which they were intended. This is just one facet of the almost impossible task of the seer who would be with her, lest they fail to see, or contradict the attempted outcome. I had this stong sense that since i was elected whether i liked it or not, i would at least hold fast to concept of calling it as a saw it. This proved to be the right choice. It would have torn me apart quickly if i allowed myself to just say what i thought she wanted to hear.
As the time drew near for her to give dictations when a service or a conference approached, an unspoken undercurrent of apprehension within her flowed unbeknownst to most around her, as she girded her mind to step forward in front of the audience and formulate what had to be perceived as divinely inspired and the words of ascended beings. As others have pointed out, including myself, the act of giving a dictation, though she was highly skilled at the perfomance art of it, was a source of great conflict in the sense that she was portraying the process as something she knew was not really what was going on. A part of her psyche had to play the role as if it were so, but another part knew it was something entirely different.
Sean mentioned the “Gold Bus” as a vehicle in which she lived for a period of time, and in which she rode around the streets when even the decrees of dozens did not seem to stem the tide of incoming energy which kept her sleepless or agonized. I lived on the gold bus for quite a while, with Gilbert H. and ECP. I can witness to the irony that Sean implies. This was for the time the core of her nightly world. It was a gold vehicle in which the torment played out. After one or a series of dictations, when one would think she was filled with impenetrable light and energy that would protect her psyche from incoming external forces, even those nights were often among the most anguished. We would have to leave the premises of Camelot, to drive sometimes without explicit direction, to eventually find a parking place in some forested area, or streetside, or isolated lot near the ocean. We generally could not return to a place we had previously stayed, in order to not let the evil entities find us. I was carried along on this rolling escape vehicle unable to comprehend why even the spiritual decrees of hundreds of people for hours at a time…sometimes three, four, five hours before a dictation, could not provide the bubble of protection that should have encased her in a sea of calm. Yes, sometimes it was a sense of relief with which we departed the campus, but even this was an odd reality, since Camelot itsself, and all the good wishes and staff members should have been the ideal place to rest her head. On the Gold Bus my bed was inches from the thin door into her sleeping area. When i lay down, finally, after whatever I needed to do before that time came, i was very close to where she slept, or tried to sleep. It was on that bus, in that close proximity, when she first pulled me into her inner private world where the boundaries of messenger and Elizabeth were crossed. The tension of the inner conflicts revealed themselves as a personal need to return to her unseen secret self, devoid of the mantle of messenger, unencumbered by the expectation of those around her. It was in the inner darkened chamher of the gold bus where she first made it clear that she wanted and needed me to be the one who would let her step outside her appointed role, to just be the woman behind the mask, behind the persona which she had encased herself in so completely in the eyes of the world and even the staff. It was one night when i was almost asleep in my bunk in the bus when she came to me. I had never thought or imagined or fantasized or conceived that my relationship would take the turn it did that night, but it was on her volition that she unexpectedly drew me into her intimate life. It brought us later to within a few weeks of being married, but that is another story. In retrospect i understand that she was drawn to the fact that i was mostly planted in the world of science and history and reality, not prone to flights of spiritual escapism or unfounded belief. She wanted the opporitunity to let herself be who she really was with someone who she perceived to be able to see that side of her, who would not stand in judgement of her stepping down from the altar of her self conceived office.
Sean mentions the houses at Malibu. After the episode in the gold bus which started us down the path of personal partners for several years, i did live with her in the Ashram in LA, and in the three houses on the beach in Malibu and in the house at Camelot. I often would drive her from Camelot at night to the beachhouse, sometimes with one or more of the family members, and sometimes just the two of us. This alone time on the way home was a decompression, although on occasion i was called on to act as seer for her clearances or questions on a wide range of subjects, it was also true that this 20 or 30 minutes driving home gave her the chance to drop the facade, though that was never the language used to understand the process. The point is that there were two personalities. I would not say clinical schizophrenia, but two distinct personalities….perhaps it is more accurate to desctribe it simply as a public persona and a private person, When alone she could sometimes just revert to being that private person, Elizabeth, not the messenger, but the girl become the woman who had similar needs and desires of other women, and who needed sometimes to have the strength of a man to balance the aspect of the woman. Because i was there to be with her in those times, my perspective is dual, and i saw both sides. Of course I agree that she formed a forceful and often overly intense aspect as disciplinarian of devoted staff, but she also returned to gentle and unassuming self when she was able, and when the circumstances afforded that relief.
Becky cautioned that we need not reveal the intimate personal aspects of the messengers, and i agree and therefore will refrain from divulging unnecessary details of living at her side. The insight i would bring, instead, is more importantly that she let down her guard. She relished the times when she could step out of her formal role, and she retained a normalcy that would be hard for most CUT members to fathom. The all consuming mask of messengership seemed to be indominatable and impenetrable to most, but for family and myself and a very few others, ECP sought to throw off the cloak of responsibility to just be who she really was.
Harry,
Great insights as always. One of the things I probably don’t express enough is that I really loved my mother. It saddens me that she did not live more of her life being who she really was. This tension she held leaked out on her entire family and prevented us from having a normal relationship. There were a few exceptions when she let down her hair. Those occasions were truly delightful for me. Unfortunately, the forces involved were bigger than her and she was not free to be herself much of the time. I consider it tragic.
HI Sean
OK after your explanation I understand your point and what you are saying about guilt, if I understand properly, you are saying it has to do with a conflict within, but not necessarily preceeded with feeling empathy or being sincerely sorry for hurting other people
I also understand that you are saying she eventually came closer to realize the harm she did later when she entered therapy
Harry, I am not sure of this, but are you saying you had an intimate relationship or love story with ECP?
because this is what it sounds like , sorry if it was well known, I did not know
I am happy you are revealing this more normal and human part of her, it makes it easier to forgive her
because we had such standards of perfection, impossible to reach, in this teachings
one would always feel bad to not be as wondrful as ECP , 100 % karma free, or her close Court , or people on staff, ministers, lay ministers,etcetc ;who were assimilitated by the “flock” to some kind of Saints
what I realize now is that she was just like you and me : human
human with all her fragilities, doubts, limits, and pains
Sean
I just read your comment about the fact you loved your mother
I understand that
I am sorry for you and your sisters you did not have many moments of true relationship with her,
it must have been difficult for you even if most people around you thought you were privileged
because emotionnally you were not
Amina,
The only reason I indicated the personal nature of my relationship with ECP was to put into context how it was that I came to know the side of her which was the face behind the mask, the person behind the persona. In answer to your question, yes, the family, Board, and many on permanent staff knew we developed a deep love which evolved into a combination of many aspects, man-woman, brother-sister, friend, partner. We lived in the same room, traveled together, vacationed together, shared experiences, quiet weekends, many nights. As i mentioned, the relationship brought us to within several weeks of being married and potentially spending the rest of our lives together. There was a moment in time when it spiralled down into the abyss of impossibility, as i came to my wits, fully realizing that I could not spend my life in the midst of the fabrication that had become the framework for her creation. But one of my motives for writing here on Sean’s site is to provide some sense of balance to the opinions of her as evil and even an antichrist figure. But In no way do i diminish the pain and suffering and life-affecting role she had on so many good people and staff.
I was a first hand witness to innumerable sad episodes where her assumption of power led to disillusioned or hurt staff, and how her quick decisions often emerging from the passion of temper and delusion, drove immense life decisions one way or another for others. . But I also saw that underlying the entire gestalt of Marks and her fabrication was a beautiful well intentioned girl from Red Bank, New Jersey, who became the multifaceted woman, who took on the role that Mark placed upon her, and in which her own altrusitic intent mutated into the monster that it eventually became. The fact that I knew and embraced that part of her natural self was how we came to be as close as we were. She needed to return to her core identity, to counterbalance the weight of the gargantuan public persona she had weaved over decades. I was happy that Sean here expressed his love for her despite the negativity that he and his sisters lived through. I know for sure that in the midst of the pressure, her endless self created crises, responsibility for thousands, never ending staff issues, publishing, pusuit of the appearance of perfection, upcoming conferences, and everything that being the head of the organization brought, her love for her children was paramount, and it often was the anchor that kept her from going even further off the cliff.
Dear Sean:
Please relay to Erin that I’ve read her book and have been in a state of total outrage!! that it took 18 years!! for all the manipulations to be brought into the open! I was in Denver when Erin made her exodus there in Jan 1993, and would have welcomed her first-hand experience and knowledge of what occurred during the bomb shelter debacle. In fact, I’ll provide the beer! Just outrageous! But, at least, now we all know. Although Erin doesn’t quite reach level of a Eugene O’Neill, she does fine job of chronicling ECP dragging everyone through her own “Long Day’s Journey Into Night”: The mad scene: Enter Madwoman of Chaillot–oops!!–Royal Teton Ranch!
Sean, I thought about you yesterday, day before–as I gathered with my own extended family with in-laws, thinking about how you can help yourself to whatever you want to eat OR drink! I sure did! I’m just sorry one of the tart-tongued twits! weren’t around for me to flagrantly tip a REAL bottle of beer “cheers!” at them, and bottom’s up! Had I been there with what you personally were treated to, I myself would have–politely, of course!–found out who the twisted little twit! was, and obtained some cold Guinness Extra Stout, to openly swill, chain-smoking cigarettes, and leave that! in front of her door. “You’re excommunicated!” “That’s the whole idea, dimwit! Do you promise!?” But, hey! I can’t exactly be excommunicated, as I never “joined” the Church! You moron!” That treatment you guys got after all the FREE MANUAL LABOR!, back-breaking work, and there’s YOUR gratitude!
True to their nature, to this very day, no one associated with the “Church” will take any personal responsibility for ANYTHING! set in motion. But, when was that NOT the case.
Either way, it’s just self-aggrandizement of ECP to think she was Guinevere! or Mark as Lancelot. If so, then not hard to see why King Arthur’s kingdom of Camelot self-destructed with a couple of fools like them running loose, if present lifetime any indication of former “glory.” They both certainly enjoyed their creative anachronisms, at other people’s expense. But, the End-of-the-World!! via nuclear attack was just more than I intended to involve myself in. At least, both you and Erin have enough integrity–not a family tradition, clearly–to at least state the truth. ECP is constitutionally unable to face the truth.
By the way, I finally realized why it is that the “true confession” session hurriedly held in middle of “lecture” at Atlanta conference in 1992. The only thing that makes sense in hindsight is she must have spotted someone in the audience, keeping tabs on her since the outrage of bomb shelter disaster, and ECP feverishly raced to confide to you and Erin her version of La Tourelle events before authentic sordid story would be revealed (Peter Arnone’s, as for instance). And, she still believed you’d both accept her version of events. That’s just appalling, really. But, my educated guess.
Hi Harry,
I did not know Elizabeth had such a love life !
thank you for explaining the situation
your testimony helps me a lot
I would like to share that I am not among those who “demonize” or think ECP is Antechrist” or anything if such nature , simply because I do not think in those terms anymore !
it is just interesting knowing that Elizabeth had a true beautifull side and a true human nature that was seen by those close to her
“Wouldn’t it be pretty to think so?” In Ernest Hemmngway’s novel The Sun Also Rises, his protagonist responds this way when presented with the thought of a happier alternate future, a future which could only have been made possible through an alternate past.
With that in mind, I very much appreciate your revelations, Harry–you are not only forthright and insightful, but incredibly compassionate, so compassionate that I can almost visualize the little girl from Red Bank who you obviously cared for so deeply. Still–even recognizing the validity of that inner persona–I can’t divorce myself from the other persona, the one which Elizabeth so zealously displayed to me, my family, and countless others. It would indeed be “pretty” to think that she could have shed her mask and made amends–but she didn’t. And because she didn’t, she destroyed herself and damaged more lives than I like to think about.
I can understand why people revile and demonize her now, just as I can understand why they revile and demonize my father. And yet, I also understand, completely and without reservations, Sean’s love for his mother. I feel the same way about our father. Like Elizabeth, he too began life as an idealistic and well-intentioned human being, and I mourn for the man he could have been if his personal demons, exacerbated by power, hadn’t warped and consumed him.
But if Mark and Elizabeth weren’t born “monsters”, how did they get that way? In the end, my hope is that people will learn from their experience in CUT and recognize their own complicity in the damage done to them. It’s not my intention to blame victims (and I’m not speaking about children who were brought into the movement by their parents). But the abuses which have been described here could not have occurred if followers hadn’t accepted and legitimized them. I urge everyone to read my sister’s book–members and ex-members alike–for a balanced view of the chela/messenger dynamic.
Beck, hello!
Thks for remembering the children. Realised all adults that entered C.U.T. also had religiuos disturbances in their upbringing to keep them commited to ECP as messenger. The Bible does say there will be Two Witnesses & God has a long history of demending ubsurd things & praising the unbelievable that many of us in our right minds would never. Having that integrated in our psychology from all walks of life leads to these kinds of deceptions. It seems part of life’s cruel design to reach an elevated healthy state of heart & mind some. Not everyone had to go thru a long C.U.T. or religious experience to end up a healthy happy person.
Claification on my last sentence:
Meaning all persons are touched in some way by religion & at some point one realizes it’s not all right. So they step away or never even walk into. Everyone does a little investigating & that’s enough for that person. Others it ends up being in a long indepth journey before they discover something they other wise would not have if they didn’ commit to it.
Just watching the non-sense behind religion from news shows, documentary’s etc is being exposed to religion & having to make an oppinion about it. Like your son. He didn’t seem to have the experience you had but made a decision thru the very little personal exposure he had of it & whatever research he has ever done on his own. It’s all part of a life design, like an artistic expression of the human spirit.
Wow, animals are the only ones not dealing with this issue! Interesting.
Greetings, Amen!
Yes, there are many reasons why people are drawn into religion, including an inate human propensity (I believe) to question the meaning of life. And when ancient scriptures are accepted as absolute truth (even in a time as scientifically evolved as ours), they remain powerful tools of entrapment, subject to new and ever more ludicrous interpretations. I don’t disdain the search for a benevolent creator–I think even hard-core athiests would be over-joyed to find that one exists. But if he/she/it is to be discovered, it cannot be at the cost of our reason. Higher reasoning, afterall, is essentially all that separates us from the other animals on this planet.
I wish you and your son much happiness–what a journey you’ve had so far!
Becky,
You make a very astute point when you say,
“But the abuses which have been described here could not have occurred if followers hadn’t accepted and legitimized them”.
I think you are right that many bemoan the time spent and time lost following the messengers, only later to come to a realization that they needed to depart, and for good reasons, and often after losing their savings and sometimes their dignity. You speak of the responsibility which must be borne by the individual follower for handing over their wills and sense of critical independent thinking to give almost blind trust to the messengers.
But of course that trust of the devoted but uncritical follower was greatly betrayed by the behavior of the two messengers To the extent that Mark and Elizabeth knowingly created an illusion of grandeur, an environment in which they portrayed themselves very powerfully and convincingly as the only real messengers on the planet, as the Vicar of Christ, as the Mother of the World, as the Mother Guru, they themselves betrayed the trust that was put in them by others. So it is clearly a two sided conundrum, and i agree with you that responsibility is on both sides of the messenger-devoteee dynamic.
I dont know if equal weight must be placed on both sides of the equation when trying to comprehend the huge consequences of peoples’ lives being negatively affected. Somehow i think that the overpowering onslaught of apparent righteousness by the messengers even exceeds the responsibility of the devoted followers, as they came on bended knee to serve and offer their lives in the name of brotherhood and altruism. But i completely understand and have compassion for those who bitterly look back and feel the pain of having fallen into the influence of the movement and the messengers which in retrospect took years away and fortunes and loves and futures.
I appreciate your comments and your vantage point as someone very close to the situation who is clearly seeing the reality and unreality in true proportion.
Very insightful discussion, thanks to all. My appreciation to Harry – your comments remind me of my blind mother. She could ‘sense’ walls by holding out her hands in front of her….the air disturbance changed when she approached solid objects. “Raising the antenna of perception into space” is actually a very human and very do-able activity, and involves scientific realities and physics (and solid intuition, based on previous training and experience). We can all do it, but your ‘training’ took on a very intense course, and I expect you learned … a lot…. from it. Intuition is the ability to jump across gaps and make connections, based on previous training and experience. Isn’t that what gives us the ability to know “the answer to [the] question with certitude”? Thank you for providing your insights. Several of us, from a distance, finally experienced the same events in our lives, which propelled us into our own less conflicted present lives.
ECP had profound information to share, and some of her lectures were incredible (a big nod and tip of the hat to the research department and Murray, etc.). I got so much from the tapes on Krishnamurti, for instance, or the discussions of early Buddhism and Lord Maitreya. All of these things inform us as human beings. It is a part of our history, and spiritualism has always been such a big part of everything humans have done. How else do we understand Christianity, Europe and the Dark Ages, the development of astronomy in Western Science, etc.? It influences the relationship we have with our culture and all of the history of human beings.
It’s interesting to see your comments — you use a baby “i” (as in “i’m loving it” MacDonalds) for you, and a capital “P” for Ploy. Can’t help but ‘loving it’…. But it takes me back to my own responsibility as a lecturer and ‘spreader of the word’ for CUT back in the 80’s and 90’s. How responsible am I, personally, for doing all those road lectures around Oregon and bringing
new people into ‘the teachings’? Based on Pascal’s Grid, I assumed it was better to err in the direction of salvation. So I convinced interested people that this church was a good idea. Some of them ended up giving up their homes and their savings in response to this training.
I am finally getting past the conundrum of “karma”, based on my consideration of the posts to the BSJ. Yes, ECP may have garnered lots of positive karma for teaching the multitudes violet flame decrees, but I can’t help but think this might have been negatively balanced by the harm she inadvertently perpetrated on people (breaking up marriages, causing pain and suffering to children of members, etc.), and by the foolishness of claiming 100% balancing of karma….
I was once called on the carpet by Marilyn Barrick for sending a note to a church member that said “We have a right to be doing what we are doing”, using a refererence to a Buddhist mudra, the ground-touching mudra. The other church member, who had recently LEFT her husband to stay with the guy who molested my 5-year-old daughter the year before (and who was in charge of building a bomb shelter in N. Glastonberry) so that she could attend Summit University (her husband was not a church member, and didn’t particularly go along with all this stuff). She took it as a challenge to her estranged marriage — which it wasn’t. I was standing up for the whole shelter-cycle thing. She got on with Ms. Barrick a lot better than I did, so they decided I was at fault.
I remember going to the meeting with Ms. Barrick wondering what was going on. When she presented the card and started chewing me out, I was shocked. But I assumed it must have been my fault for not being clear, that perhaps I had some inner fault that caused this. I remember thinking, during the whole chewing out, this one thing:
Saint Germain supposedly ascended after making 2 million “right decisions”. Were those decisions consecutive or cumulative? Had I reached 1,999,999 right decisions before blowing this one, and was I doomed because I had to go back to 1 again? This was actually what kept me from responding forcefully to this blunt and unreasonable attack by Ms. Barrack. Believe it or not!~
On the Mark Prophet blog, someone mentioned that ECP had more good karma than bad because of all the people that had learned to decree, do the violet flame, etc. That made me wonder if karma was like a pyramid scheme — does it increase as it ripples out? Who in the world keeps track of this? How is it counted? Does BAD karma do the same? Is it also added up as it spreads out? Oh My Gawd.
In the long run, I guess the bottom line is to try to Do No Harm Today. Being human, I’m probably bound to do some harm, but hopefully, I’m also able to do some good. I’d rather err on the good side of things.
Again, thanks to all for the insights. It’s helped me reconcile some of the things I participated in for all those years.
Nancy,
Your comments are very interesting and indicative of contemplation and experience and i wanted to just affirm your conclusion that above all, do no harm is a good way to sum up the vast complexities of life and action.
Sean leaves us mostly free, within some bounds, to explore a broad range of opinions which we appreciate, but i return for the moment to the underlying premise of this site that the scientific method, and Reason, can form a solid underpinning of an uplifted life. But even in the context of a non-theistic lifestream and mindset, i think that beyond the knowledge derived from rational learning, there is Compassion at the pinnacle. Among the massive lifetime teachings of the Buddha, the one summary lesson he concluded was above all else was that if you live a life of compassion you have achieved the essence of the highest goal. Even one who walks through life unaffected by the pull of religion can embrace the power of compassion which is borne of wisdom, which reigns above knowledge but also contains knowledge. Those blessed with the wisdom to emit the love and selflessness which is the substance of the compassionate life, can know that whatever the law or non-law of karma, as some would consider it, there is no doubt that life lived in giving and loving is sure to reap its rewards in this life, or whatever might come after.
I accept that the atheistic viewpoint does not contain the law of karma as something that rules the cosmos and our selves. I would disagree, in the sense that i believe in the very scientific fact of cause and effect, and i perceive that causes drive effects both in the mechanical and atomic and chemical and energetic world, but also in the world of mind and thought and the feeling world. I do not believe that our thoughts are just the result of atoms moving in our nerve cells, but the other way around, that the essence of consciousness has its demonstrable effects in our brains. But this is a point of view that veers away from my main point in reaction to your comments. Sean insists on proof when stating an opinion such as this, and i offer the following, very briefly to at least ward off the rath of Sean lest i make a totally unsubstantiated claim.
When i was going after my degree in Clinical Psychology i was doing a special research project in Electroencephalography, which is the process of observing electrical brain waves using an apparatus that picks up the electromagnetic impusles as nerve cells fire either randomly or in patterns of sine waves, or something in between. We hooked up many people to the hardware, and the premise of the professor’s ongoing research was to train people, including myself, within the construct of a sensory isolation chamber, to control the subjective state of consciousness by entering into a calm awareness, similar to a meditative state, and witness the resulting brain wave patterns. Part of this process was to train subjects into the ability to intentionally enter a state of consciousness which made the brain put out smooth beautiful sine waves of between 8-10 cycles per second, called alpha waves, and also slower deeper smooth sine waves called theta waves. By controlling one’s state of awareness and relaxing the typical somewhat frenzied jumping around of the restless mind to one of calm expanded elevated awareness, the result was smoothed out brain waves. Using a feedback loop, within several sessions with the hardware you became able to control the actual shape and frequency of the brain waves by controlling your state of mind. The mind drove the electrical waves, as opposed to the electical impulses causing the mental state. A number of Zen masters were brought over from Japan…these were monks who had been meditating for 20 years and longer, and they were phenomenally able to instantly enter into a state in which their brain waves became absolutely pure sine waves, of deep theta and even delta waves which are usually only present when we are in deep sleep, and yet they were fully conscious. We also saw them stop their hearts totally, flat line, for many minutes, at will, and then start their hearts up again. During that time they were conscious. This very brief and incomplete review is just meant to make a case, however poor, for those who maintain that thought preceeeds and drives the brain instead of the brain chemically or neurologically causing thought. I have no doubt that there are those who will lambaste me for such a position, and it really is not germaine to this discussion, but the idea i wish to convey is that we can lead ourselves into a compassionate life, and it is not just atoms and molecules doing the deed. For me consciousness exists as the domain of awareness of life around us, and it is more than electrons moving in nerve cells.
To your point about karma being cumulative or consecutive. Assuming for the moment that karma does function as a law of cause and effect within the context of mind and selfhood, my thought is that clearly it is cumulative if by that word we mean that one bad mistake does not knock the whole accumlated aggregate down to make us start from square one. I think if a mistake brought us back down we would all be crawling on the first steps.
A question for Harry S. on the “seer” subject.
In the mid 1980’s, it could have been 1984 or 1985, ECP’s right hand “man” Susan E. Krister fell from grace. A litany of her offenses, along with a commentary thereon, was released to the community in a form of a letter which was supposedly written by “El Morya”. Are you aware of this event in the history of the organization? And if so, I have a question about the origin of that letter. Is there any reason to believe that this letter was a product of the “seer” working for ECP at the time?
Harry S.,
I would say that compassion comes about through empathy, which is present in nearly everyone as a signal from mirror neurons. Some people are more responsive to this than others. But I would say that for a healthy human, compassion arises from the impulse to avoid pain. No one who’s not pathological likes to see others suffer.
No doubt expert meditators can more quickly and easily drop themselves into theta, just like you mentioned some of the eastern “masters” and yogis have learned to control otherwise involuntariy bodily functions. I look at these guys like body builders, except for the brain and nervous system. As with anything, practice makes perfect.
I don’t see any conflict between those abilities and a physical brain-generated mind. I’ve been having this discussion elsewhere. It centers around the claim that there is something non-physical which generates consciousness. My opinion is that consciousness is an emergent property of the human (or animal) neural system, and that it is entirely chemical. The question cannot be settled for certain until a full brain simulation is completed in silico (should be by about 2020, barring problems). So far, work has achieved a single cortical column. But it seems the overwhelming majority of modern neuroscientists accept that the brain is the mind.
As far as karma is concerned, I agree that we live in a causal universe. But one of the main predictors of human success is reputation. And reputation suffers from bad deeds. So in this way I think fear of “bad karma” and the desire to build up “bonus points” or curry favors with others could be said to regulate human action. But absent discovery of a supernatural mechanism for the “return” of good and bad deeds, I would have to say it is entirely about reputation and standing.
William, and Sean,
I knew Susan K well. But i was not there when that particular letter was issued. Of course i cringe at the thought that after devoted service to the messenger, for whatever reason susan ended up “falling from grace” it should never have been the case that she or anyone in a similar case was “exposed” to the rest of the staff and viewed as a pariah. That very tendency by ECP was one of the most grievous of traits. I witnessed similar cases too often. But in answer to your question, it is very likely indeed that whoever was at that moment in the role of “seer” would have be consulted by ECP in the generation of that sort of letter. When i was in that role, among the most difficult and stressful moments was when she would ask me to posit her momentary excoriation of some staff member who she decided was acting out because they were really a particulary evil past incarnation come home to roost. The most radical case i was directly involved in along those lines was when ECP decided that her own father was Peshu Alga who she claimed was in prior ages an evil being of cosmic proportions, responsible for the degeneration of the angelic kingdom. She asked me to confirm that, I could not and did not. To me that was completely ridiculous and paranoid.
Sean, thank you for your thoughts, and for not skewering me for my alternative viewpoint about mind and brain. As you know there are two sides to that question, and there are many who maintain that mind exists above and sometimes beyond the neurological pathways, but of course neither viewpoint has yet been proven. Yes it will be interesting indeed when a fully mapped silicon or technical brain analogue is created, and whether or not “consciousness” or self awareness emerges. I hope we are around to see that happen, and I hope they keep a finger on the “off” button if it is a robotic form with the ability to harm, as in iRobot and the worst nightmares of Asimov.
Harry S.,
I guess I have a bit of a rep for that. Thing is, I would never “skewer” anyone who was arguing reasonably. It’s only those who come in with an agenda and refuse to listen to reason. You have no idea the hate mail and hateful comments I’ve been putting up with since 2001.
re: Susan Krister,
I don’t remember exactly who was in the seer role when she was let go. What was most shameful about that particular dismissal was that there was no more dedicated servant of The Summit Lighthouse than Susan Krister. She was a firebrand. When she left, she was not respected or thanked for her service.
Instead, past confessions and personal habits she’d disclosed were discussed at a “permanent staff” meeting as a way of demonizing her. It was disgusting.
She tragically died of cancer a short 5 or so years after leaving. I spoke to her two weeks before she died. It was one of the most humbling conversations I ever had with anyone. Basically saying a permanent goodbye to a good friend over the telephone. Ouch.
To elminate any misunderstanding, I would like to followup with Harry S. asking for a clarification of the time frame that he acted as a “seer” for ECP. I assume that ECP did not use more than one person as a “seer” at a time. So you must have started in that role sometime after 1985, is that correct? And when did you stop playing that role?
As to Susan E. Krister, I liked her a lot. Though I only saw her public face, and I was never acquainted with her personally. I remember in the content of the letter which I mentioned above, that it was said that she had a bad habit of treating staff members in a very harsh manner. I wonder if there is a parallel there. If you evaluated ECP only by her public face, she would have been a saint to nearly everyone. Yet, behind the scenes we see that some of her behavior appeared to be out of step with that public persona. Was it possible the same was true with Susan E. Krister? That her public persona was immaculate, but behind the scenes she too had behavior traits, when expressed, damaged souls, and that, in least this respect, the letter shared with the community was accurate? Both of you appear to have known her personally, so I wonder if you could answer this question.
And to Sean specifically, were you a first-hand witness to the permanent staff meeting in which the content of Susan E. Krister’s private confessions were shared with the staff? I was under the impression that all confessions written out by the members were promptly burned.
William,
To answer your question, my time in the seer role came before 1985, not after…it was during the Camelot days, and extended during the period of about1978-1981, but there were earlier experiences which ramped up to the formal position during those years. I joined permanent staff in 1973 at LaTourelle.
I was for a while quite close to Susan Krister. When i was living with ECP Susan had taken on a role which brought her into the house as a personal aide and she had several positions which afforded her relatively ongoing interaction with ECP. I must say that i have no recollection whatsoever of Susan ever acting unkindly or incorrectly toward anyone, although we are all imperfect so of course i am sure she had her faults like everyone else. She was always a colleague and companion and fellow staff member. As Sean says she was a very dedicated and hard worker and for that reason she was held in high regard by ECP and everyone else who knew her, as far as i knew. And this is why it is so pitiful for someone like that to have her personal issues exposed to other staff…that simply is cruel and unusual punishment. And i can say that unfortunately it is not true that “all confessions written out by staff members were promptly burned” I believe that Erin revealed the sorry truth in her book, or perhaps it was Tatiana but i personally knew that there were files kept that should never have been kept. Some of the most potent weapons in the quiver were personal staff confessions and in some cases i think ECP kept some of it for ammunition if and when needed at some future time.
I saw ECP blast Susan with a large dose of blue ray heat on many occasions, but in short order Susan was back on her feet having weathered the storm. I always admired her strength and fortitude and she seemed to just keep going under intense pressure.
Sean and all, I was surprised to see my name mentioned in your Nov. 12th critique of Alex Reichardt’s book in which you listed me as a “co-author”. For the record,several years ago, Tom Miller made a video of my retelling how I met Mark Prophet, Tom edited it for his purposes, and Alex in turn edited and changed the context for his book. That barely qualifies me as a co-author. While the story of my introduction to Mark is essentially correct, the book’s context of adulation in no way reflects my sentiments now or even back then. Mark and Elizabeth were both exceptionally gifted and exceptionally flawed people. I still reflect and learn from what I experienced with them and their community.
I greatly appreciate that, even with it’s shortcomings, you and this journal provide a needed forum for discussing the Prophets’ self delusions, manipulations and the community they inspired. In the past only the ongoing church or it’s detractors had their incomplete say about what happened. Thanks for this. While many would categorize you as a detractor I think this is more in the vein of unveiling what took place and looking at Mark and Elizabeth as the complex and self-deluded persons that they were.
I actually retain a level of affection for both your parents even though I think they were ultimately charlatans and abused their trust. Again, I continue to occasionally reflect and gain insight from what happened there even though it’s been decades and I look back on the experience as a one of many chapters in the generous life that’s been mine. But ,hey, I’m no co-author with Alex.
Best wishes.
Harry S. – Again, to eliminate any confusion as to how your reply ought to be applied in regard to time, I would ask you whether your personal aquaintance with Susan Krister ended at 1981, and therefore, was it possible that she could have developed (problematic) interaction patterns with staff that unfolded after 1981, when her prominence in the community was greater, and her power was greater, with which you were unaware? I am thinking about the principle of how power corrupts. Is it possible that this principle was in play more and more as she became more and more known as the right hand man for ECP, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, and thus her power over others increased over time, and this principle started to eat away at her soul, which expressed itself as behavior patterns with which you were unaware, and which led to her expulsion?
Or did your acquaintance continue over those years, and your observations apply to those years as well?
Harry,
Yes, I too believe that the balance of blame tips heavily toward the “messengers.” I continue to bring up the subject of collusion only because the witch’s brew could not have come to a full boil without it. Obviously, most CUT devotees were and are sincere, decent people– spiritual seekers whose trust was grossly violated and abused. Their suspension of independent critical thought in no way justifies the way they were manipulated, misused, and misled. In the same vein, the damaged psyches of Mark and Elizabeth don’t even begin to justify their actions–but they do offer a partial explanation.
Once again, Harry, I feel certain that your thoughts and revelations are of a great help to many people. And I agree about compassion; wherever it comes from, it’s at the center of whatever spirituality I feel.
To William: I never knew Susan K, so I can answer none of your questions. But her banishment and demonization doesn’t surprise me any more than the disclosure that confession letters were retained and filed rather than burned.
Becky,
i think you are right in the heart of the complex matter of the dynamics when you say “I continue to bring up the subject of collusion only because the witch’s brew could not have come to a full boil without it.” That is a descriptive way of capturing the important fact that the messengers could not have evolved and devolved without the complicity of the followers who gave away a part of their reason and will. And we agree that the greatest portion of the responsibility for the breach of trust was the messengers who had in their power the ability to teach helpful information for people’s personal growth and service to mankind but who chose to seize power and promulgate their delusions of spiritual granduer.
William, you ask if Susan might have gotten out of control after i left and prior to her dismissal. I will answer your question as follows. Although i did speak to Susan a couple of times after 1981, for the most part i did not stay in touch and was unaware of the inner details of her life as she gained more prominence and presence and power. You may be correct that in those years she shifted from her dedicated humble posture to a more aggressive one, but i do not know that and I simply cannot say that was the case. It would not surprise me to learn that the viewpoint of her possiblly getting into a power trip was a reflection of ECP’s post-facto “exposure” when for whatever reason she fell out of favor. It as a typical approach of ECP when someone was deemed to be persona non-grata to rip into their legacy of selfless service in order to leave their reputation marred, so i reserve judgement as to what the actual truth was.
I’ll weigh in on a couple of subjects here: Susan K. and the fate of member’s confession letters.
I recall Susan as a breath of fresh air when she arrivd on the scene, energetic, a wonderful smile and with a can do attitude. As she gained a higher position, she became more wacky as she dealt with the stress of having a lot of responsibility and with competiting for ECP’s favor. I recall being called into Susan’s office where she proceeded to shout at me for some reason I can’t recall. It was over the top. I’d heard on the grapevine that she was “becoming more blue ray” but it was the first time I’d seen this side of someone I previously thought of as a relatively balanced. I recall thinking that she was trying to emulate ECP. Later when Susan was gone there was the ritualistic staff meeting where the sexual stuff that she’d confided to ECP was revealed. Staff members were encouraged to pile on with several taking turns denouncing her and enumerating her shortcoming. This is a dark side of the community wherein hollow “friends” turned on a dime since only days earlier they would have been fawning over Susan and laughing at her jokes.
Regarding the confession letters, I think that most if not all the S.U. confession letters were destroyed as a matter of course, however, subsequent notes or confessions that staff and members sent to ECP were kept in their personal files. They were not confidential or destroyed. I know that as a department head for many years, I was routinely sent files that were an embarassment in that I didn’t need to know the secret problems or histories of people that were about to be assigned to my department.
The letters served another purpose. When staff or church members seriously displeased ECP, besides being dismissed, she tried to tear down whatever good name or standing they had in the community so she sought out staff members who held a grudge, anything demeaning available from confession letters or counseling , and in cases where there was no garbage to dig up, she could always claim that the person had been really evil in a past life. I recall that after one guy left who was widely liked, she claimed they had been a gay bad guy in a past life. So, as Harry said, confession letters were only one of the quivers she could reprieve when ECP went into battle.
Having said that, I believe that during the Gregory Mull trial, there was a realization that the personnel files could be subpoenaed and most files and confessions were cleared out. For days the staff of the personnel office could be seen hurriedly burning papers by that barbecue pit next to the Camelot tennis courts.
This stuff seems stranger than fiction, huh?
Alexandro,
Sorry about that!
I bought Alex’s book, and he lists all of those people as co-authors. It seems like an attempt to use argument from popularity to bolster his story. Have you read it? He really acts as if every story my parents told of every “embodiment” is the gospel truth. Having your testimony in the book as well as the other people listed as contributors makes it seem as if you agree with him–or you wouldn’t have allowed your name to be used.
The book says “Alex Reichardt with Margaret Reichardt, and other disciples of Mark Prophet.” Which makes it seem that everyone whose story is included is backing his version of events.
You might want to talk to him about that.
Anyway, it’s really good to hear from you. How are your kids? They’ve got to be just a little younger than me now. Grandchildren?
HI Alexandro
the fact you are decribing about confession letters is very disturbing to me
Iknew about it since I left the Church and it is one of the most shocking things to me
I have written a few of these letters, and was told as everyone else that they would be burned
Idon’t remember exactly what I wrote but thank’s God I never wrote anything bad , simply because I neve did anything bad
but some of us would trust totally this systemand write very personnal things
you have to undersatnd that the idea xwas : you write to the Masters (ie GOD) all you have in your heart that burdens you, so all this willbe forgiven and earsed
so it is so manipulative to do so and then keep the letters in people’s files
beng raised in the Catholic church as a child I learned to trust Ministers and that oral confessions were to remain confidentiel
I felt so betrayed learning about such practices in CUT
it is veryserious to breach that confidence, in some countries the priest-penitent secret is considered so sacred that is it punished with criminal punishment by a Court of Justice
this means it is fundamental to a democracy and to the principle of freedom
this fact only really proves this church was not as church at allst an organization to glorify the gurus
too bad in n the US anything goes and anyone can call a Church whatever organization he wants
there is profound reform to do there to protect the people from being ripped off
emotionally,physically, financially, mentally, and spiritually
Harry S., thank you for the clarification. My impression then, from what you are saying, is that your personal involvement in the community ended in 1981. Do you have any idea of who played the “seer” role for ECP before you entered into that role in 1978? And what became of that person?
I wonder if I am getting the wrong impression here, but it seems to me that every person that we know about who played the “seer’ role started to look for a way to get as far away from ECP as possible. Correct me if I am wrong. We have the example given in the book written by Alex Reichardt, where the first “seer” assigned to her (after Mark Prophet said he didn’t have the time to do anymore), was at first a very inspired chela, but then he all of sudden became rebellious, and had to be removed from the community. We have your story, Harry S., which speaks to another unhappy ending (at least that is my impression). Then we know about Erin Prophet who, after her stint as “seer” suddenly became more interested in the popular culture and its ways, than the teachings of the Ascended Masters, and started to look for a way out. I wonder if it could be shown that every “seer” who worked for ECP, eventually was separated from the community on terms that were not harmonious.
Is there anyone reading who knows who played the role of “seer” for ECP prior to Erin Prophet picking up that role? And who played the role of “seer” for ECP after Erin Prophet refused to do it anymore?
And to Alexandro, thanks for at least one first hand example of behind the scenes behavior on the part of Susan Krister in relationship to staff, that could be considered abusive (it certainly was not kind and considerate), and which was clearly out of step with her public persona. However, I am not criticizing her for it. (Though shouting is not considered to be an effective management technique). I imagine that there are great pressures that come on people when they are elevated into leadership positions. And I think those pressures, when not handled properly, will feed the process of corruption which always accompanies power.
And to Sean, were you a first-hand witness to the permanent staff meeting in which the content of Susan E. Krister’s private confessions were shared with the staff?
Profound Paranoia
When i look back on some of the things i did at the request of ECP and what i witnessed, I shudder to think how truly paranoid she had become and how dangerous certain elements of that mindset were. Behind the polished mask of exalted power she held up before her face to the public, was the very disturbing reality that she was wracked with fears for her own life and that she would be bombarded with incoming negative energy of such magnitude that it would obliterate her literally and physically and psychically.
When i was at LaToutelle, it was the time just after she had been married to RK. Most staff knew that was a rocky relationship, at best, and at worst downright scary. His fiery termper and her fiery temper made for incendiary episodes, and sometimes the doorslams echoed through the halls. There would be blowups where he was so angry that you needed to just get out of the way lest you might get a piece of what was directed towards her. But it never elevated to life threatening proportions, just short lived outbursts of emotional energy and shouting matches. And there were extended periods of time when he was “in thedog house” and he would not be allowed to sleep in the house so he had to sleep elsewhere and he could not come into her presence for days or weeks at a time. But the paranoia grew quickly to where she thought her life was in danger, and that his energy would instigate the forces of evil on the inner planes. At the time she had a house on a hill above LaTourelle in Broadmoor Colorado Springs. Here is the part that shocks me looking back at it…somehow or other she elected me to be her lethal protecter from him and the dark forces, and along with Gilbert H, I went up to the house every night and slept on a mattress on the floor right outside her door. Next to me, inches from my hand, was a loaded revolver, i think a 40 caliber pistol, with very live bullets in the chamber and an extra box of ammo in the drawer. The concept was if the forces of evil stormed in, or the boogey man crashed through the door, i was to instantly grab the gun and blow them away…shoot, to kill. Thinking back on it this was completely irrational paranoia on her part. And the thought that I was ready to shoot first and ask questions later demonstrates the magnitude of the insanity that had grown into the situation. She actually expected me to use deadly force with a second’s notice in the middle of the night, and at the time i was ready to do it! The threat was conjured in her own paranoid mind, and somehow i ended up sleeping with the loaded gun at hand. This was so out of character for me…i was and am not prone to blow people away, but at the time i was caught up in the insanity. Thank God (or with deference to BSJ) thank goodness i never had to pull the trigger!
While that pistol-packing radical example of ECP’s paranoid fears for her well being is over the top, many people including me were witness to her ongoing irrational concern for her psychic life. Erin mentioned the sometimes perpetual “tags” where staff were summoned in revolving teams to decree literally all night and even for days without stopping. Why? Because the messenger could not steep because the forces of fallen angels or evil energy or the bad auric emanations of a staff member would penetrate her forcefield if the tag were not in action. She could have just given four dictations after having the audience give 8 hours of decrees, but still somehow that positive energy was not sufficient to protect her in her own mind from the onslaught directed against her. The tags went from occasional to often to constant. True paranoia reigned and even the smallest blip on the ethers would generate another subject for the taggers to blast away at.
When we lived in the houses on the Malibu coast, i would often drive her home in the evening. During those drives which lasted perhaps 15-30 minutes, she would sometimes do a kind of clearance which was way above and beyond what she demonstrated in front of most staff or on stage. In these cases she would elevate the level of her voice to a pitch which cut sharply into space and into my eardrums, and she entered into a mode of shouting at the bad guys which was extremely intense and tinged with fear. Some of it was beyond understanding the words due to the speed and the running together of words, but most i heard was intended to annhilate and obliterate what she perceived as negative energy intentionally directed towards herself. She felt she was sometimes, then often, then always being scouted out by the most powerful waves of horrifying bad forces. If it wasnt squadrons of UFO’s piloted by dark aliens, it was Lucifer himself, or perhaps the spirit of her own father who she had come to believe was the one who enticed Lucifer and the fallen angels from their perch in heaven.
During the period when i was in the role of her seer, she would do a few minutes of this blast and anihilate action and stop abruptly and ask me what i saw. It became quite problematic when i told her i just did not see whatever she was trying to blast away at. These denials by me would often make her jump back into it at an even more intense pace and pitch to the point i sometimes thought she would blow her vocal chords out or pop an artery, or worse. As we pulled into the driveway, it was like the instant off button was pushed, and she could descend from the elevated clearance action to revert to her normal self. I use the word normal advisedly. The isolation of the house on the water, and the calmness of the wind off the ocean, and the distance from the stresses and strains of the organization, gave way to a whole other personality. If she managed to leave it all behind, which she sometimes did, these were the times and this was the place, where the mask was removed and she could just be the person free of the facade she had to wear on campus and in front of others. Sometimes we drove up the coast on the weekends to a beautiful remote house owned by the Yaneys directly on the beach in Ventura county which they gave us the keys to, far away from camelot, and here were the most relaxed and sane times, when she actually left the weight and paranoia behind as if they were from a different dimension.
But the paranoia traveled even to the shores of Malibu. After many months of relative quietude at home, the fears caught up to her and climbed on her back and hung on even as we entered the door to the luxurious and well appointed beachouse. She would rarely allow anyone other than the children and a few chosen aides to come to these houses, but once her paranoia caught hold in those times, she would have one or two permanent staff of long standing come and sit in cars or sit in the garage or in some room to carry on the hours and hours of decrees. Very rarely did she thank them or even see them. Then it got worse and what had been one or two people for an hour or two extended to several people for the entire night.
The paranoia grew to a more pathological level. When it was no longer adequate to have an all night tag of decrees going at the house, she would have me work on whatever was bothering her right there at the bedside. When she perceived that even this close-by protective action was insufficient, there were times when either one or more of the children or several staff would be summonded to come jon with me in the bedroom and we would surround her and grab hold of her feet to form a circle and direct-connect link so the decrees would penetrate directly into her forcefield in order to give her what she needed to imagine the threat was contained.
There were many nights when she would wake me and ask me to decree or hold her feet because she was under attack from the dark forces. For periods of time i became severaly sleep deprived and my health suffered from the constant state of being half alseep at night, ready at a moment’s notice to generate the required outpouring of energy to releive her from the grips of the evil ones.
…
Schindler’s emphasized words: “I could have done more…”
The teaching that some opportunities occur in regular cycles, others come round once every ten thousand years…
Do you want to live with regret, or risk missing a rare opportunity? Etc.
There is a prevailing flavor in the message of conduct expected of chela’s of the Masters. On many occasions it had me second guessing myself, when it was clearly unnecessary.
Christians use hellfire and damnation as the blunt instrument in their arsenal of guilt. For E.C.P. it was the ascension and the timetable allotted for that to be fulfilled. Missing a 10,000 year opportunity could put you, and all the unascended lifewaves you have karma with in a very precarious position.
Do you really want to test God’s grace to the point of losing your ascension?
Shame & guilt, pilled on shame and guilt with some additional helpings of shame and guilt. Yadda, yadda, yadda…
A slightly different angle then the traditional Christian message of hellfire and brimstone, but still a very present and iterated theme, woven through the fabric of all the other components of the message delivered by Mark and Elizabeth, from their alleged Masters.
You know, I wonder if the impending threats of losing the battle, or being cast into hell, or forfiting your ascension, etc. If all these messages didn’t exist, what would the religions of the world look like? Actually whilst I am at it, for the sake of argument, lets erase the rewards too… God for Gods sake… No punishment, no reward, no limited time offer…
No need to get that credit card out for the limited time offer on the juicer/blender/food processor/music box/answering machine…
Sale?! what sale?
Rewards and punishments… What are you, a lab rat?
Anyone with a semblance of intelligence should have cognitive dissonance over the concepts of heaven and hell…
Unfortunately for the religious sales pitch, and fortunately for me; the hysteria and fear couldn’t outway the cognitive dissonance of a message thats believability waned with the passing of time.
Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary proofs.
Exactly, how miraculous has that violet flame been for you? Really.
Tell me about it… pfffft. Show me it is anything but mundane. Demonstrate it!
8 plus years of submitting to the practices of invoking, via decrees, God’s (7 rays) attributes. With a focus on the blue and violet, fair to say close to 2 hours daily (average) in this time. For the record, I saw, smelt and tasted the violet flame, even though now I think it was the combined result of hypnotic suggestion and altered brain patterns from a meditative state.
What can I say as testimony?
Magnificent? Miraculous? Marvelous? Nope, mundane would be the appropriate semantic. Nothing extraordinary whatsoever.
The suggestion of the extraordinary was certainly there, but the proof… not so much.
Can you, in all honesty, say any different?
Profound Paranoia:
After leaving the teachings, my ex-husband descended into severe methamphetamine use and eventually into the regular use of heroin. His extreme bouts of paranoia in the early period would sometimes include extreme fear of the ‘dark forces’ and incredible anger toward and fear of “god” and of other imagined entities (including some of the things that were brought up during the shelter cycle, including spacecraft, giant squids in space, etc.). I observed this incredible paranoia over imagined spiritual/etheric/astral entities, fought with decrees, sword waving, cursing, etc.
Obviously, he was way out there — he didn’t actually ‘see’ these things, he just thought they might exist, according to what he’d studied over the years. They became quite real in his mind. He was eloquent (he was gifted and quite intelligent before drugs robbed him of his facilities), and could convince any audience of these ‘realities’ for a period of time. In the end, his paranoid reactions included gun waving, multi-day raves and the smearing feces to degrade and repulse regular citizens whom he considered ‘the enemy’ and other bizzare and overt actions. A lot of his craziness hinged on this imagined spiritual world, developed and added to by what he had learned at CUT over the years. Keep in mind that crazy people in cells often smear feces as a response to their restricted environment and to exterior stimuli.
Harry, I realize that mentioning some of this might be repulsive, but I need to let you know that I see parallels in behavior to environmental stimuli (although not as severe). Human beings can convince themselves of supernatural beliefs and become increasingly paranoid, to the point of dangerous paranoia.
Some of us — most of us — eventually put the brakes on this type of thinking. But some descend into permanent disability.
It comforts me that Ms. Prophet was able to extricate herself from some of this thinking before she sank into a state of….non-comprehension? I don’t know how she fares these days, but I wish her well. I think she suffered from her condition for years and years, and that she ended up isolating herself from any significant help.
Clairvoyance is a slippery slope. It always seemed to me that clairvoyance was exactly the thing that the church was dictating against when they told us to leave our “psychic abilities” at the gate. It wasn’t until I went through 3rd level SU that I realized that the upper-echelon staff was simply getting a pass for the psychic abilities that we could all excercise, should we feel the desire to do so. This awareness struck me during a Marilyn Barrick-led class on Ramakrishna for me. I realized that she was practicing ‘psychic’ actions regularly, and that the church proscription against these activities was self-protective. Oh, brother……
Black Sun, thank you again for this forum. It seems that most of the discussion is centered around inner staff, but the help to those of us in the mid-range territory (and there are miriad of us!) is invaluable. I think I’ve finally realized that I’ve actually been a proud athiest all these years!! Hm. Who knew? Oh, well, I live with a pragmatic Jew, which is just about the same…..
Harry S. Did this kind of thing go on during every drive home? Or only 90% of them, or 80% of them, or 70% percent of them? or perhaps 10%, or 20% or 30%? Please give us some sense of reality in that regard.
William,
I was not there. But I heard about it from several people at the time.
Nancy,
I tought your input on paranoia was interesting and shows how different human stimuli mixed with the galactic or planetary waves of evil entities imagined by the messengers was a potent and poisonous brew. You mentioned how your afflicted ex-husband didn’t actually see these things, he just thought they might exist. Imagine the magnitude of the problem in the world of ECP who likewise could not see these things, but was so often claiming that their influence was imminent or present. Part of it was the tact she utilized of creatng a sense of crisis to keep those around her on edge and not flat footed. But another aspect of it was the idea that due to her supposed position as the Vicar of Christ, who else would be the likely target of the dark ones, but the highest being on the planet. That self-generated battlefileld kept her almost constantly concerned about what was lurking at the doorstep about to knock her out into a state of illness or even death Some staff remember that at times she proclaimed that the danger she was in rose to the level of her being at the risk of death itself. For a period we saw how it paralleled in the dictations, where there was a progressive motif of ever increasing crises. Of course this crisis management and paranoia theme peaked with the Shelter Cycle where the prospect of nuclear annihilation painted the most dire picture of all including the concept that the bombs would be aimed directly at her at the Ranch….talk about paranoid!
And Nancy, i did get a good chuckle from your comment “I think I’ve finally realized that I’ve actually been a proud athiest all these years!! Hm. Who knew? Oh, well, I live with a pragmatic Jew, which is just about the same….. ” A pragmatic Jew…yes i can relate to that being co-equal with a true athiest. For most Jews, although they are brought up to fear the wrathful G-d, for the most part there is very little adherance to deism in daily life.
William, you asked a few questions, and postulated that those who filled the role of seer all, one by one, left the movement with a head of steam on their way out. I think that is true, because those people got to see the real nasty stuff and the most bizzare and incredibly intense side of the messenger, and got to see with a magnifying glass the inner psyche of Elizabeth. But the timeframe differed for their departure. In some cases the end of their time as seer spelled the end of their presence in the movement,. But a few i can think of hung on for a while and then it was over, but i believe it is true that every single one ended up disillusioned and disturbed by what they saw.
One question was who filled the role of seer to ECP in the years prior to my time. Let me start back in 1973,,,after Stanley went from high to low in the minds of the messengers, Without mentioing last names to protect the innocent, ECP had a very close relationship with Barbara A, who was in the position of “editor” for Elizabeth’ written word. She was highly precise and skilled in grammer, syntax, and the process of editing. For a brief time, very brief, i recall that ECP brought her into the seer role. But i also remember that ECP told me one day that Barbara was sorrowfully inadequate in that roie and was unable to get out of her logical head into the etheric planes where the mind of the seer was supposed to operate. It was only a matter of time when she was gone.
There was also a time if i remember correctly, i beileve in the timeframe when we were in Pasadena, that Susan F. was appointed. She had been a close staff member and confidante to ECP, but i think that did not last very long either. She ran into problems with a propensity for an energy type which was anathema and she was severely reprimanded and in some ways demoted. She went on to remain for a while on staff, but she too, found her way to the door and out.
The only other one i remember but i am not sure, is there was a short time perhaps just a few months when Kay S was pulled into that enviable or uneviable role, depending on your point of view. Kay had been a longtime devoted and valued staff member and she was on the personal staff of ECP. I saw her get blasted many many times by ECP for whatever trivial mistakes or blunders which were inevitable in the presence of the messenger, because sometimes even the smallest infraction or imperfection elicited the wrath of “morya” via the mouthpiece of the messenger. Kay withstood it all, but eventually it wore her down and as often happened, she went from a very high position to being cast down and out and that was the end of her.
And then there was a period of no person in the role of seer for a pretty long while before i began to be brought gradulally and then officially into that position. We had been having increasingly intricate interactions in the sense of me spending alot of time with her one on one with writing and editing and traveling etc and she became dependent and as i mentioned in an earlier comment, almost addicted to someone who she considered able to perceive things she could not see. So the day came when she specifically told me i was supposed to be with her for all clearances and she wanted me to sit across from her whenever she wrote, to establish a polarity that gave her the sense of protection and balance. It got interesting to say the least, but this very close proximity let me see the scaffold behind the facade, and the reality revealed itself as unrealty, and the whole constuct started to come crashing down in my being. I saw too much to believe in the validity of her “office” and that questioning drove the wedge that served to topple it. But for me things evolved into a more personal relationship and impending marriage. I came to a moment in time where the years of holding in abeyance my consistent sense that the foundation of the messengership was cracked and flawed brought the clear seeing that i could not spend my life with her. As soon as i made that evident to her, there was no way she could deal with that rejection, and the end was near.
‘Stories’ (I consider clairvoyance a good story) grow larger and larger over time, and the duplicity behind them tends to grow greater when it is the current grist for the mill. Guilt, sorrow, and paranoia seem to grow exponentially when individuals are engulfed in an imposed isolation (and all dedicated CUT members tended to isolate themselves from family and ‘the world’). A huge burden was on the shoulders of everyone involved, all the way up to the top of the pyramid — an unenviable position held by the ‘guru’ herself. Meglomania is one of the most isolating behaviors of all, and it seems to cause extended damage to anyone who suffers from or with it.
My gut tells me that ECP was more trapped by these things than Mark Prophet would have been, by upbringing and personality. Mark appears to have been a consummate salesperson from the beginning, and he undoubtedly was able to sell ECP what she was looking for. She WAS a seeker when she found him.
The fact that she was able to look back in recent years and express some concern for her past has been a comfort to me; I don’t want anyone to carry those things to their grave. I am sorry that there is little hope for my ex, who is hopelessly entangled in serious substance abuse and will probably end up dying from it in the near future. My kids have had serious discussions with me about their CUT days in Livingston and Paradise Valley, and understand that part of the psychology involved there causes some of the affectations that they see in their father today. It HAS helped them understand the world better — it has opened paths of discussion about religion and human relations that are not common in regular discourse.
An amusing aside: The girls were attending a local church-based k-12 grade private school when they were called in over some non-conformance issues a couple of years ago. The principal was not well-liked by the students of the school. I’d been warned by my 13-year-old that he was having an affair with the secretary, which I ignored (hey, he was the church pastor, for Pete’s Sake). He called us in, then proceeded to tell us that we couldn’t attend their school unless we subscribed EXACTLY to their church doctrine… Assemblies of God…. My 13-year-old admitted to knowing about Buddha and Krishna. He had a FIT (we’d regularly reminded the kids to keep quiet about that stuff – the 9 year old kept quiet). Wow. I though he was going to start taking swings at us!!! Two weeks later, he got canned for messing with the secretary. Out of the mouths of babes…… The new administration was happy to let the girls stay on, in a spirit of Christian acceptance.
I think that the training the girls got through the Montessori training and the church, although somewhat harsh at times, and a real physical and emotional grind, was valuable. They got a breadth of training in world religions that was valuable, especially when we add on the current discussions of church-related issues that come up. They are currently reading Erin Prophet’s book, and this has brought them back in touch with old Sir Thomas Moore classmates for a more open discussion of these issues.
Our world is fascinating and wonderful, amazing and surprising, isn’t it? There were incredibly talented people involved with CUT, and the materials that came through the organization were often superb. I know a heck-uva lot about MIRVs, for instance, and I’m REALLY pissed about our being in Afghanistan right now.
By the way, what’s Rev. Vosseler up to these days? Anyone know?
Why would you be pissed about the U.S. being in Afghanistan? I thought we had more or less a national concensus regarding the mistake America made by leaving Afghanistan to fend for itself after the Soviet’s withdrew, which allowed that nation to become a basket case of internal warfare, which led to the rise of the Taliban (the people welcomed them for the sake of order — not understanding what kind of “order” they stood for). Once entrenched, the Taliban sponsored Osama Bin Laden’s Al Qaeda, gave him a safe-haven there, and thus it became a terrorist base camp from which were organized the 9/11 attacks against America. It looks like if we leave, the story is just going to repeat itself.
Rev. Vosseler is a member of the Church’s Ministerial Council, and regional minister I believe, shepherding the TSL flocks in and around Texas or there abouts.
William: I ran the Oregon Committee for a Free Afghanistan from 1986-1988, and was honored to meet and work with several Afghanis and freedom fighters during that period. I remember when Russia pulled out, and church members were speculating how long before Kabul fell to the northern alliance fighters. We failed to support Afghanistan properly in the past.
I had a very strong reaction the day after 9/11, when President Bush said, “We’re going into Afghanistan after Osama Bin Laden”. I was horrified we were going in there in a military incursion. My husband said, “Oh, we’ll only be there a few weeks”…. I did not, for a moment, believe that.
All that aside, this column is regarding clairvoyance, so I’m very hesitant to discuss political viewpoints in this forum, unless they are brought up by the owner. If you have any questions, feel free to email me any time. You’ll find my email address at my website (which is attached to my name above).
Alexandro: Stranger than fiction, indeed!
Harry, your posts continue to conviince me that the CUT experience was essentially living inside the fantasy (and nightmare) of someone else’s pathological delusion. Nancy’s ex-husband suffers delusions which sound, for all intents and purposes, no more outrageous or ludicrous than those suffered by Elizebeth. The basic difference is that Elizabeth’s were legitimized by a legion of devotees and presented from the summit of an established spiritual heirarchy. It’s not difficult to understand how decent, intelligent searchers such as yourself could easily have become ensnared, unwittingly fanning the flames of psychosis. If it wasn’t for my peculiar upbringing and experience, I could have been vulnerable to this sort of thing too. Sometimes I wonder how I would have responded to CUT, or similar spiritual movements, if I hadn’t been my father’s daughter.
Louis, I agree. Where was the “proof”, except in the wish fullfillment of people who desperately wanted to believe? In a way, it’s similar to The Emperor Has No Clothes.
Nancy, I think you’re right when you say that Elizabeth was more “trapped” in her persona than my father ever was. And I also agree that he was more of a “salesperson”–and thus better able to embrace and display his “human” side. In his defense, I honestly believe that he was also a true “seeker” in his youth–earnest and sensitive and sincere. Unfortunately, he was also a man whose early rejection and mistreatment left him desperately in need of recognition and affirmation, apparently at all costs. In the end, power warped him. When I last saw him less than a year before his death, I realized that it was also beginning to rob him of his natural warmth. He was paranoid, nervous,unable to relate, and (in my opinion) not very happy.
Becky,
You have well summarized many of these posts when you say “the CUT experience was essentially living inside the fantasy (and nightmare) of someone else’s pathological delusion.” Short of flinging the feces, the fantasy and nightmare can indeed be described as psychopathological which had enough room in it for several thousand to gather in the folds of her skirts. But as i have mentioned, she periodically in private came down from the summit of the mountain of megalomania. These returns to reality only highlighted further how far she deviated from the firm foundation when putting on the garments of a perfected being. When the concept of the law of karma was so fundamental to the teaching, how else can you describe someone who steps forward to have her master proclaim she has cleaned up and cleared out every single iota of past karma, 100%. That presumed arrival at the portal of perfection is the spiritual analogue of textbook megalomania. How often have we seen mentally disturbed people say they are Christ come again, and looking from the outside in, we see so clearly through the veil of their usually unkempt exterior into the sick mind. The messenger proclaimed for herself not only the Crown of Christ, but the mantle of the Buddha, the office of the highest Guru, the title of Mother of the World, and the role of Messenger for the two beings Alpha and Omega who span the entire known Universe. The delusion of grandeur does not get much more grand than that.
The fantasy took on a whole other tone of paranoid fear when we were in Santa Barbara preparing for the initial semester of Ascended Master University Level 3. At the time I was directly involved with ECP preparing the teachning materials and the lessons and marking up certain books from which she was going to teach. Among other things, one of the books was Anton LaVey’s “The Satanic Bible.” Interestingly, LaVey actually lived just a short distance away in Santa Barbara. I do admit that his writings on the Satanic culture carried a creepy vibration and there was no doubt evil intertwined. But in the mind of ECP this was a doorway into flights of fantasy the likes of which were in a class of their own. The book had to be wrapped in aluminum foil, lest the evil vibes leak out and enter the aura of the messenger or me or whoever else was permitted to touch it. But more importantly, the teaching from this book resulted in untold imaginings that ECP was being attacked on the astral plane by hordes of witches and covens and necromancers and fallen angels and worlocks. Battle lines were drawn and the war went on between the forces of evil and fhe legions of Archangel Michael, with ECP suffering the arrows which soared through space between the armies. Sleepless nights, protracted decree tags, painful illnesses, and all sorts of psychosomatic maladies ensued. She imagined that her teaching on that book had pierced a hole in the veil of the Astral Planes, and all hell was breaking loose. I was in the middle of that fantasmagorical nightmare, but somehow it just receded into the past as we moved on to the next crisis.
On a completely opposite end of the spectrum, as we proceeded through the Level 3 semester, she took up the teachings of Agni Yoga and Helena Roerich. As i had previously been a student of Agni Yoga, i worked with ECP by picking out material in the books which was somehow pertinent to whatever was going on at the time. For me this was a high point as i considered these teachings to be lofty and profound, as did Elizabeth. But what was bothersome was the jealously with which she proceeded to dole it out. Her fear was that the students would recognize how much more precise and detailed and expansive those teachings were, and that they would decide to leave her and run off to study from the works of Agni Yoga. At first if i recall correctly the students were not permitted to own these books, and ECP kept them locked in a cabinet with a padlock on it, next to the aluminum wrapped LaVey books. Both good teachings and bad were forbidden, verbotten, for similar but opposite reasons, and the fantasy and paranoia went on.
And then of course there was the Mechanization Concept. Talk about paranoia! As she went through the teachings on Mechanization, she would enter into periods of imagining the robotic creations of evil beings in space were attacking, and that became the subject of the decrees to protect her from that horde. This tied into the teaching of the Nephilim on which i had done extensive research, as these Nephilim, or “fallen ones” were mentioned in the book of Genesis and there was a historical esoteric biblical literature about them. She intertwined the idea in the bible that the Giants came unto the daughters of men, and through impregnating them, created a race of half-man half-fallen angels which wreaked havoc on the earth forever more, even to our present day. She determined that certain large-headed people living in the economic and political community were reincarnated Giants, sons of the fallen ones, and the subject went down the road of the truly paranoid. These modern fallen ones became the subject of the decrees of only trusted permanent staff, and in the preambles of the decrees, their actual names were entered so that we could zero in on their dark energy to protect the messenger from their dastardly intentions towards her personally on the inner planes. Need i say more?
I could go on with more examples of paranoid behavior and no doubt others on this forum could share additional stories, but here is for me the most interesting part of this from the perspective of psychology. When we were home, at the house on the beach for example, when she was able to shed the garment of grief as the target of the dark forces, when we would just walk alone on the sand with the water lapping in gentle waves, in those times it was almost as if she did not believe the entire gestalt herself. There was a sense of that was “other” and this is “now” and she entered into short periods of being free of the whole constructed fantasy. I say this so that some who are interested can understand that although she created the larger than life persona of the Messenger at the head of the the presumed highest movement on the planet, yet she was also able to step out of it in private and live some moments of normalcy, if i may use that word. So in considering this duality or some might say duplicity, it seems even more pathological that after retruning to those times of unencumbered pre-messenger reality, she could walk right back onto the stage which she and Mark had furnished with all the props and backdrops to sustain the illusion.
Becky, Emperors new clothes, indeed. ;)
I’d like to say Harrys undistilled account is stranger than fiction, but the bizarre was something that infrequently made its way onto the alter, for those present to witness, (myself included.)
How many have seen the older Camelot tapes of ECP’s space-suit-esque outfits?
I know some klubkids who’d pay good money for those threads. ;)
I wish the stories were all, as funny as, bumping into a local keeper on a local transit platform and telling him to calm down after yelling, “Eww entities!” and jumping away from an ash tray. D00D, you just screamed like a little girl over an ash tray! GET A GRIP!
Those incidents make for some funny stories. Some of the stuff however, I just can’t laugh at. I am trying to laugh, but honestly, had I got in as deep as Harry, that whole episode with the loaded gun, would’ve really messed with my head… even more so then all the crap I’ve experienced being a part of that movement.
Unfortunately, it isn’t just funny stories, that I can get a good laugh out of. Some of the stuff is just disconcerting. The mental illness of Nancys Ex, even though it was exacerbated by heroine use… I wish I could say it was just ridiculous theatrics and the hysteria that resulted… Mental illness was something that I witnessed on numerous occasions.
There was a local elderly women who was assailed by these (alledged) dark entities. I spent some time with her before her alzheimer’s took over and she was put into a home. What is noteworthy for me is the language she used as I was present with her. It was either the dark ones attacking, or it was the masters upset with her for not doing enough. The noteworthy part was that there was little difference in her demeanor, regardless of the force. Both the upset Masters and the dark ones, caused a ringing in her ears (she was hard of hearing and used a hearing aid) and either instance required her to decree.
This was another factor, in the unhinging of my involvement. How come I could attain a sense of peace, and establish a forcefield of light and feel fortified by it, and others would become so discombobulated?
That is when the subjective, vs objective experience started to weigh on my mind and I began to wonder, what portion of this is self generated, and what portion is objective? What portion of this, isn’t just in ones head?
Looking for that answer, more than any other factor, got me out of the walk of faith.
As much as the recollections of my time involved with CUT weight on my mind, considering Harry’s gun episode… I got off, and out fairly easy.
Harry S. – You say that you sat across ECP while she wrote. Was that during the time she was editing dictations for publication? Either as pearls or in book form? What did you do during that time? You had to sit there, but what did you do? Were you working on your own project, and she just wanted someone to be there with her? Or did you have to decree? Or did you have to meditate. I wonder if you could explain that more fully.
And again, I would bring up the question about what you experienced when you drove ECP home. Was the behavior you described an every day reality, or did that just happen once or twice a week, or once a twice a month, or once or twice a year? I am looking for sense of proper proportion there.
And here is another good question I think. In your experience, did you ever witness ECP draft a dictation before she gave it in public?
Nancy C. – What motivated you to do three levels of summit university? That was quite a commitment in time and money. And could you please expand on your reference to Marilyn Barrick and the use of psychic powers (?)
Hmmm. Interesting food for thought. Why three levels at SU? The outside info and research was excellent (thanks and a tip of the hat to the Research Department and the teaching staff). I loved the Ramakrishna material, the Agni Yoga stuff, the materials on Buddhism and the other religions, as well as the psychology courses in Grief, Transpersonal Relationships, etc.
I entered the teachings in or around 1981 as a KOF. I did it to support my husband, who had found books from SL, including the Human Aura books. He was more attracted than I was. However, I went to SU I in 1986 in Malibu. I was was there through the Mull trial. I attended SU II in 1991, I think (Shelter Cycle fall), and SU III in 1996. I was pretty invested over time, and I figured to go all the way with it at and through the Level III point. Pascal’s Grid, don’tcha know?
During the Edward Francis indictment I was able to keep my butt planted in one of those comfy little Court seats for a full 8 hours without moving, decreeing with as much concentration as possible, with only cold bancha tea to sustain me. After that, the rest was just curiousity, and the fact that I had so much invested into the whole process.
Level III was very, very interesting. I loved the material — Ramakrishna, Agni Yoga, Psychology, Buddhism, etc. Good stuff. Good teachers. Good materials.
After that, I ended up at Summit Beacon International, the wholesale book vendor that the church owned for a time. I was the AR/Collections agent for a while, collecting on bad sales debts. I’ll bet Wild Oats still has a bunch of our free books to this day…… The company had a real problem. It had the deep pockets of the church, and a weird management style. Barry, the warehouse manager, was a totally wonderful guy, dedicated, but pragmatic. Where did he end up?
The workers all got minimum wages, which in Montana during 1996-97 happened to be $4.25 an hour. I think the salespersons were strictly commission, but I’m not sure. Not enough to survive on. But they had to pay rent in Livingston. No benefits, no nothing. I really felt for them.
I’d managed to negotiate $6 an hour. Robert was the CIO, and he also got $6 an hour. He brought a Mormon, Phil, in to replace him. That was funnier than all get-out! Phil had to go down with the SBI ship after Robert and I bailed. The church made the workers sign a form that protected the church from lawsuit over the mold that was found in the building. Apparently, they had to sign it to get enough money to get laid off on……a 30 day severance package, as I recall. One month’s wages at minimum wage?
I finally left the church after they turned me down for the ministerial program and I realized that there was nowhere else to go with the organization. In my application, I’d quoted St. Paul (‘those things that I do that I would not do…’). Ms. Barrick apparently didn’t catch the quote and told me to get counseling over this. Hmm. Meanwhile, I was working on the “Surrender Catalogue” with the Livingston Church, which I think pissed off HQ that winter. They recalled our Livingston TSL pastor and repremanded him. Meanwhile, old church ladies were freezing their butts off in Livingston apartments, and we were blocked from doing a soup kitchen or any other real form of community outreach. And members were selling vitamins on pyramid schemes to survive.
Enough. I eventually know when I’m not wanted, although it might take a couple of swats upside the head. Winters suck in Montana, anyhow. I went back to S. Oregon and started a garden. In March. It’s all good.
So…. I started in the church to support my husband. I stayed in the church because of the investment I had in it, and for my husband. I got out because of all the logical inconsistancies and inability to go any further with it, and the fact that my home life fell apart and there was no support for me and my family, or our needs. (Churches are supposed to provide that, right?)
I went to the fair and I saw the bear. And I paid the entry fee, so we’re good, right?
If ECP was taking dictations, how could that NOT be considered psychic or clairvoyant, really? How do I test this (without psychic or clairvoyant ability)? Do I get stuck with Faith?
Marilyn B. would take us through guided meditations in our classes, which clearly employed ‘psychic’ adaptations, which could also be labeled ‘psychological tools’. I heard plenty of psychic interpretations of thoughts and inner visions during those episodes. People saw angels and devils all the time, and they told about it, proudly, in the Pearls of Wisdom.
Harry,
Re: ECP, I’m especially struck by your metaphor: “…thousands (gathering) in the folds of her skirts.” Your ability to communicate your insights so lucidly and lyrically may lead you, at some point, to publish an extended essay or literary work. I’m not sure if you’re ready for that but, when and if you are, it would certainly have value. :)
Also–duality or duplicity? I suspect a good deal of both, although I’m more inclined than previously to believe that duality became more and more of an issue, eventually smothering the “other” Elizabeth who appeared, only sporadically, in her private moments with you, her children, and (presumably) others like you.
In restrospect, there are some comic elements to this tragedy–Louis, your story of the entity-infested ash-tray gave me a real laugh! –but it remains a tragedy, for Elizabeth, for my father, and for all the people they mistreated and abused.
I feel as if I’ve said more than enough on these subjects (especially since I’m an “outsider” in terms of being a CUT participant) but I would like to make it clear that it has never been my intention to judge or demean the spiritual search which led many of the people on this site to a religious movement. As for me, I identify myself as falling somewhere between my siblings Sean and Erin–I question the existence of a benevolent “God” and am beyond suspicious of ANY religious dogma, but I’m also unable to distance myself completely from a spiritual sensibility. I suppose there’s something “spiritual” in simply being alive!
Best wishes!
Becky,
The only thing i have disagreed with you about is where you say “I feel as if I’ve said more than enough on these subjects”…your input and insights are of great interest and value to me and others, and you are certainly not an outsider, in the broader sense. Your perspective is unique.
I told Sean i could write a book if i ever chose to gather up my recollections, and if i did, perhaps you and Tatiana could edit? But Erin is a hard act to follow, and the real interesting story for me gets to the intimate, where you warned that we should not go and i have abided by that. But I do understand you were talking about writing on subjects other than CUT.
William, you seem to be interested so I will try to answer your questions. You ask what was ECP writing and what was i doing when I sat aligned across the desk from her. She would do several writing and editing tasks, usually associated with dictations or Pearls of Wisdom, as opposed to the more mundane, but there were also personal letters and editing lectures she was about to give, etc. From her persepctive she needed an antipode, a magnetic pole to create a balance. She felt the benefit of having a polar opposite lined up to form two energy centers. Somehow she concentrated better and felt more anchored and able to keep on with the work. What was i not doing? Not writing, not talking unless she wanted to discuss it, not fidgeting, not spacing out, not getting bored, not slouching, not letting my mind wander….What was i doing? Acting as a magnetic pole through which energy flowed in balance with her own. The idea was to not complicate the forcefield but to just act as a lodestone, a natural nexus of lines of force. It was intended to support the effort she was making to concentrate on what she was doing, not throw out jagged vibrations. The purpose was to be a calming and elevating balance. No doubt some will demean this in retrospect, but the fact is she wrote voluminously and some ot if was quite good and at the time, anyway, she wanted someone to sit with her.
What about the times alone in the car driving home? It depended on how intense the prior moments were at Camelot or wherever we were coming from. If she had just gone through a staff meeting where she “exposed” some evil deed, she would carry that angst on the way home and would scream and shout at the “entities” which had infused themselves into that poor soul. Or she would do “clearance” to free herself and the person from the grips of the slimy substance. I recall the very first sessions of SU (at the time Ascended Master University AMU) where we had the color images and colorful names of the various entities, showing how they ensnared themselves around us like snakes or leeches or clouds of dark mist in the lungs, etc. Her clearances were intense and sometimes radical, when she was outside the earshot of anyone. In her world she was doing direct battle with the worst of the worst, or perhaps just a gaggle of entities which had floated into malibu canyon and found themselves nefariously impregnating one or more staff, or maybe it was the next battalion of aliens in their invisible flying saucers, or even thousands, or 144,000 fallen angels who were pummeling her head.. So it was varied and fever pitched. But if it was after a dictation, and if the substance of the dictation was positive and not threatening the next crisis, things would be very different, and it was often more of a relief kind of energy as opposed to a let me do battle mindset. When she was not doing clearances, we would talk about a broad range of subjects with no limit on where those conversations might go.
You asked if i ever saw ECP draft a dictation before she gave it in public. Interesting question. No i never saw her physically write out a dictation before giving it, BUT the fact is that i did often hear her say concepts that formed the backbone of a dictation that she subsequently gave. When she was getting dressed or even earlier in the day before we left the house, in some cases her mind was already getting itself around the thoughts and ideas and nuances that would then come out in the dictation. So it was not that she would sit there and write it out beforehand, but she would indeed prepare her mind sometimes by formulating or considering what thoughts were going to come out. It is hard to describe and i imagine it would bring the wrath of current CUT devotees upon me for explaining this, but you asked. The dictations were not always totally extemporaneous. They were not always completely on the fly. There was some mental preparation of concepts, in some cases, not all. Before certain dictations, when we would sit in the Sacristy next to the altar before she was going to walk out and give the dictation, she would be very clear about some of the things that would come out. If there was a specific issue of concern, or a major upheaval on staff or in the community, or a world event, she would mention it and sometimes we would talk about it which somehow rounded out her mental apparatus to bring the words closer to the surface, more ready to become spoken in the context of the dictation. This was not collusion or intentional pre-scripting but it was how she did it…on very rare occasions she would do what she called ex-cathedra where it was a different experience for her, more spontaneous and stream of consciousness. But for the most part, some amount of mental preparation would take place to get at least the subject or theme or major points ready to come out. There are those who have written on this site and elsewhere who question fully or partially that the dictations were from any being other than herself. I will leave that question to others to form their own opinion, but the proximity i had led me to understand that there was a good deal of ECP’s forethought that ultimately came out in the fabric of the dictations, spoken and written.
Harry: Several of the line people thought it would be fun to write a book about the absurdities of ‘chela’ life. Like having a bookbag you had to navigate through those narrow rows of chairs, for instance….. Some of it was extremely amusing as a window on human nature & ‘chelaship’ …. NLR
Nancy C. – Thank you for that explanation. I am wondering what level of involvment did ECP have in SU 1986, as compared to SU 1991, as compared to SU 1996? Was she becoming less and less involved, and delegating more and more to other “teachers”? In earlier SU classes, she was the only teacher as such. She has teaching aids, but they did not do any teaching as such. Did her personal involvement with the SU classes diminish over those years? Moreover, over the course of that ten year period, in the midst of what appears to be a very high level of commitment on your part, did the Ascended Masters ever make it clear to you that they were real? Did your faith in their reality increase during your SU experiences, or decrease? Also, you seem to have had some face-to-face time with Marilyn Barrick. You might not be aware of this, but when she died of some kind of throat cancer, that was earlier this year, or was that last year, the current leadership practically made her into a saint. What do you think of that? Did she strike you as a saint?
Harry S. – I appreciate the thorough answer. Thank you. In your last post, and another post above, you have talked a lot about the (unseen) forces ECP was doing battle with. You mention that she would make calls on “entities” that were attacking staff members or herself, and I don’t get the impression from what you are saying that her “seer” told her about these things. It appears that in these cases she did not need a “seer” to tell her that her calls were needed in a particular direction. And the amount of passion she put into those calls, from your description, seems to point to the possibility that what she was reacting to, was influencing her in a powerful manner. It sounds like she had some kind of internal antenna in this respect to register the activity of these “entities”. Could you clarify that? If she had such an internal antenna, why did she need a “seer”? And perhaps this goes to the same point. In your use of the word paranoia, are you communicating to us the idea, that in your judgment, that these “entities” were complete fantasy? And that she was putting all of this enormous energy into doing battle with things that did not actually exist?
Thanks much, Harry! I’m sure I’ll continue to chime in from time to time. In the meantime, if you do decide to put pen to paper , I’ll be happy to offer any assistance I can. Sean has my email address. :)
One clairification: Although I’m not entirely comfortable with publicly sharing some of the specific private episodes I witnessed, I certainly didn’t intend to suggest that it would be wrong for you to share yours, especially in the format of a book. Obviously, the totality of what you have to say would require the disclosure of some very intimate experiences–and I understand that completely.
Nancy and Louis: I suppose there IS a Theater of the Absurd quality about CUT chelaship–and humor is often the best way to diffuse both pain and anger.
I’m still chuckling at the ashtray entities. Dude!
Quoting Louis – “How come I could attain a sense of peace, and establish a forcefield of light and feel fortified by it, and others would become so discombobulated? That is when the subjective, vs objective experience started to weigh on my mind and I began to wonder, what portion of this is self generated, and what portion is objective? What portion of this, isn’t just in ones head?”
Louis – I take that as sort of a witness to some dimension of functionality in regards to the path you were on. Even if it was just inside of your head, as you say, I am just wondering, isn’t it better to have a sense of peace, and the feeling of fortification, inside of your head, than something less attractive? Even if it is self-generated, how many people would like to know how to “self-generate” a real sense of peace and fortification?
Or did you finally conclude that your sense of “peace” and “fortification” was actually not real, that it was a fantasy, or a figment of your imagination? That the “peace” that you felt, you never really felt? That you were somehow being manipulated into feeling something that was not real? That you were somehow being tricked into feeling something good, so much so that you would attach the word “peace” to it, yet you discovered that it was actually not real? Please clarify.
By 1986, the organization was deeply immersed in the Mull trial. In ’91, we had the shelter cycle and the gun crisis. In ’96, Ms. Prophet was pregnant & gave birth. These things took presidence over personal teaching of classes. Classes relied on teaching assistants and staff, who utilized a great deal of taped materials from past classes.
There’s this place in human consciousness when and where we “click in” to something that seems universal. When musicians go into this zone, the music almost seems to play itself. When volleyball players go there, they spike that ball perfectly every time. When it happens to someone in church, they might feel like they’re existing on a different plane — colors are brighter, sounds are purer. Maybe they see violet flame or angel shadows in the corners of the tent, or auras of other people around them. [It happens occasionally when people take certain drugs, too.] What causes this blissful phenomena? Is it just extra seratonin in the brain, or triggered by 12 hours of steady decreeing plus raw vegetables for lunch? Or following certain rituals repeatedly? How does seeing angels differ from seeing devils and having a paranoid reaction?
It seems to me that no two people will react exactly the same way to the same stimuli. I’m voting for psychological and physiological reactions to chemical triggers within the body, along with past training, experience, etc.
I think most of us love that place of heightened preception; being able to play that music effortlessly, coming up with some brilliant ‘darshan’ for a class, slam-dunking that physics final at school…..
This type of ‘click’ usually comes after investing a lot of personal time and energy and attention into the activity — studying the Teachings or observing the solar system (the earth is NOT flat, and it goes around the sun!!) or practicing for the Olympic Swimming contests. A lot of us found those places of bliss occasionally through a disciplined application of some of the CUT program & materials. That was one of the stated rewards for following the program, after all.
Still, Hell was also part of the CUT doctrine, and that can evoke a fearful reaction. My chemical reaction to some of the materials was fear. Devils and entities and mechanization man….. spending a couple of hours swinging a sword has got to have an impact on one’s psyche.
I think that Ms. Prophet may have been acting from both of these extremes (bliss/fear) at times, and that there was a strong chemical component to her activities and behaviors. She was so heavily invested into the whole setup, it had to trigger extreme reactions, and extreme reactions can cause physical illness.
On a separate topic: Yes, I heard about Ms. Barrick a couple of years ago. I guess it means that we all have the chance to be saints, eh? I guess I’d call her demeanor ‘severe’. ‘Reserved’? She didn’t seem to be particularly happy or joyful or even at peace. I suspect that she had her doubts, buried deep down inside. She was my commandant from 1983 through to 1997, and we crossed paths several times.
No, I am not endorsing the efficacy of any component of this spiritual path.
I am not sure I will be able to clarify anything for you, based on your style of questioning, because it sounds like data and statistics are a language you’d understand. All I have is personal anecdotal, and that is worthless. It has absolutely no validity whatsoever.
So to be clear, I am not witnessing to a dimension of functionality.
The simple fact that I have no further interest in pursuing these practices in a more clinical fashion to acquire hard data, should speak volumes. 8+ years is a sufficient time frame to convince me that any further pursuit, would be an even greater waste of my time.
I no longer decree (or pray) and I no longer meditate.
I have experienced tranquility throughout my entire 39 year lifetime. I can very much say that a spiritual path isn’t a prerequisite. As for that fortifying forcefield of light? I’ve gone for over a decade without it and I still have many moments of tranquility.
What I was speaking to in my initial comments, wasn’t about functionality, but how the application of spiritual techniques (visualization & decrees) produced dramatically different experiences, depending on the individual. I agree with Nancy’s take:
Yes, some people are happy drunks (that’d be me) and for others, the uninhibiter of alcohol, lets the A-hole come to the surface.
“It wasn’t me, it was the alcohol… I am sober now”
“It wasn’t me, an alien scientist shot me with a tranquilizer pen and implanted me. That device and the robot secret agents monitoring me on the inner planes, was causing my out of alignment state… Archangel Michael finally cut the device away and bound and removed those robot agents”
The practice of stilling the emotions and quieting the mind, or doing focused visualizations (meditation) was something I was already practicing coming into the movement. So decrees (and the teachings specific visualizations) where added onto that framework.
I’ll emphasis again, I no longer decree (or pray) and I don’t meditate. I don’t miss it.
A nice hot bath, or a walk along the beach, good music, even a good meal and a couple glasses of wine… there are plenty of techniques (all worldly) that I employ to relax and de-stress. The mind and emotions become tranquil. No spiritual practice necessary and it still feels good.
…
Becky, I am also very much appreciative of your presence here, as I am to Sean for hosting this blog. This virtual venue has been a good outlet for that cosmic drama/nightmare.
well, well
the more Ilearn the more Iam happy I escaped this dementia
I realize ECP used “seers” all thr time
in the 90’s she used smeone else (I guess after Erin left?)
as a “seer”, which was her hairdresser, I think, to tell people their level of karma
some people were told in KING ARTUR COURTin front of everyone else that ther prayers and decress for years and years were useless and that they were basically fake ‘”chelas”
i remeber one partocular person that I know who was told that, but that lady is still in CUT !!!
also I would like to kwow why is that “communicants” had to send with their application a photograph of their hands with both sides?
what was that for ?
some kind of manipulation scheme again ?
also : one must know that many people who were kicked out unfairly were also awfull themselves to others at times, I can think about many people I knew while in CUT like some SU teachers , who were cold and tyrannic to people who would get tired or harrassed of so many hours decreeing or listening to all that brainwashing we got
they would make you feel like sheat (excse my language) and at the same time make you undersatnd you were getting the greatest dispensation (blessing) in your life to go to heaven(‘
Amina,
You ask if i realize the blue ray stuff i talked about were just {ECP’s} psychotic episodes… In my opinion, some of it was just a very brusk and out of control temper. Some of it was an overwrought sense of righteousness where she thought that in her role as “messenger” she had the authority to blast away at anyone at any time she heard or saw something that did not please her. But some blue ray blast episodes i thought were totally uncalled for and bordering on something really wrong, perhaps neurotic, maybe psychotic, but certainly leaving the staff member withered and burnt and feeling very low. Even those staff who prided themselves on taking her outbursts with no visible depression or skipping a beat, i could usually see the deflation in their emotions and minds from undergoing what was sometimes a blistering torch of fire coming out of her mouth. I was sometimes stunned at how she belittled them, in the name of her master morya, thinking at the time that this was her, not him, who would exhibit such behavior.
So in no way do i excuse her so called blue ray method, though i do understand the premise of chipping away at the ego in the process of soul attainment, to the extent that concept is valid. I have never seen any other guru or spiritual teacher that even came close to the intensity of her verbal excoriation. i do agree that it at least bordered on mental instability if not clinical psychoses, but who could really argue against the notion that it was indeed incredibly painful. She maintained that it was healthy, stripping the ego of the chela, sometimes shouting about things from the person’s past life of which they were not even aware, so these reasons would moderate in her mind the severity of the moment. I usually felt really bad seeing these people who slept on the floor, who worked all hours into the night, who decreed for her without her ever even knowing it, who gave their life savings, and yet she would not hesitate to flail away when she saw fit, or sometimes just suddenly. The myth grew that it was a badge of honor to be verbally disciplined, but retrospect gives the lie to that myth.
William, you ask if ECP had some kind of antenna with which she detected the “entities” attacking which implied she did not need a seer since she was able to see herself what was going on with the entities…i would say no, it was something different. As i explained, in my opinion she was mostly devoid of a sense of inner visual seeing, and she only feigned being able to see into the inner world. Instead her reactions or sensing of entities or attacks were more feeling angst, or nervous, or ill, or sleepy, or maligned, or one of many uncomfortable feelings, to which she ascribed various entities or energy from dark forces. This is why i use the word paranoia to describe some of the behavior. Instead of her accepting and perceiving that she was tired or feeling ill, or sleepy, or nervous, almost everything was attributed to some outside force intentionally trying to cause these bad effects, with evil will. Sometimes we hear that after some maniac has murdered, he claims that something whispered in his ears to do the dirty deed, so it came from outside. For those who believe in entities and fallen angels, those claims of “the devil made me do it” have validity, but others maintain that what happened inside his head but projected to an outside agency, is the substance of mental disease and hallucinations.
well, well
the more I learn the more Iam happy I escaped this dementia
I realize ECP used “seers” all the time so it means she was fake all the time
Harry, do you realize the “blue ray stuff” you talk about were just psychotic episodes
ECPwas really ill, my GOD !
all these guns ans stuff
no wonder why she had people buy guns later during the shelter periode
the poor guys who were caught and sent to a court of justiice were just tele-guided by her madness
poor Erin and SEAN, I am sorry for both of you, with such level of madness around you
I know that in the 90’s she used someone else (I guess after Erin left?)
as a “seer”, which was her hairdresser, I think, to tell people their level of karma
some people were told in KING ARTUR COURT in front of everyone else that ther prayers and decress for years and years were useless and that they were basically fake ‘”chelas”
i remember one partocular person that I know who was told that, and was devastated, but that lady is still in CUT !!!
also I would like to kwow why is that “communicants” had to send with their application a photograph of their hands with both sides?
what was that for ?
some kind of manipulation scheme again ?
also : one must know that many people who were kicked out unfairly were often repeating the role model of ECPherself and were very tyrannic themselves towards others
you could be persecutor one day and victi mthe other in this disfunctional family, , because that was the system in this organization; one or the other
I don’t remember myself that I was such a mean person to others, but my own family told many times I had become intolerant anf rigid (no black, no sugar, no alcohol, no rock and roll, bla bla bla)
I can think about many people I knew while in CUT like some SU teachers , who were cold and tyrannic to people who would get tired or harrassed of so many hours decreeing or listening to all that brainwashing bullshit we got
I was myself mistreated because i was getting very tired of all that crap
they would make you feel like sh… (excuse my language) and at the same time make you understand you were getting the greatest dispensation (blessing) in your life to go to heaven , so it made you fell horrible
in fact in this curch we attached more importance to being masochist that to be joyfull and happy and we attached more importance to dead people than to living persons
quoting amina – “I know that in the 90’s she used someone else (I guess after Erin left?)
as a “seerâ€, which was her hairdresser.”
amina – Please give us an idea of how you know that. Is that first hand knowledge, from the hairdresser herself, or is that information second-hand? And do you have a name to go with the hairdresser? You mention that this person had something to do with the subject of karmic levels, and I am wondering if this “seer” might have been the source of the 1997 karmic readings that were later published I believe in the Pearls of Wisdom. For example, Marilyn Barrick (who later died of some kind of throat cancer) was said to have balanced 70% of her karma.
Harry – Again thank you for your further response to my additional questions. And here is another one. When you were sitting across from ECP during her work periods did she ever consult with you in regards to the content of correspondance that she received from members, asking you go into your “seer” mode to help her answer the letters? Did information which you supplied (from the “seer” space) ever go into correspondance to individual members? That is, with the signature of ECP at the bottom?
Hi, William,
to answer your question about the period, this hairdresser episode was indeed around 1997 and i think it has to do with the so-called “karmic readings”
at that time I had returned home in europe but was still member of the church, and i exited CUT somewhere around 1998 after reading the cut-info web site that was put up at the time by ex-KOF
in this site many people discussed the karmic readings and said they were told by ECP’s hairdresser, so this is how i know
maybe we couls ask other people
shortly after that ECP was diagnosed with demencia
so it made sense to many of us that the karmic reading thing was her last crazy action before she was totally “out” of her mind
i did not receive the pearls of wisdom you mention , about info on marylin barrick or other people
so what i know is not first-hand information but i was at the time in close contact with people at the ranch or in glastonbury who were present during the karmic readings period and confirmed what i read in that info-site
a lot of people in the church knew about the karmic readings, because information circulated fast in the community, since everyone knew someone who knew someone
it was a fairly small community in fact, and people knew each other fairly well because we wouls spend hours together decreing and so forth
i miss that part about the spirit of community and that we shared the same values
for example you could live your purse somewhere in the middle of the cafeteria in church ground or onthe floor in some field outside during conferences with 2000 people around and nobody would take anything
you had never to worry about your belongings
also you would always find a helping hand and someone to lift you up
it is really nice to think it exeperienced this, and the peoplein this church were so nice, i have never found that anywhere else !
William,
I think one of the most reprehensible and wrong activities was the idea of “kermic readings” by the “hairdresser” or anyone else. What do you think the chance is that there was truly accurate information being given in cases, for example, where they proclaimed that someone had balanced 70% of their karma, or that some person had engaged in a specific act hundreds of years ago? NONE. And it sounds so much against anything any master or wise person would say is a righteous act…to publicly announce what some untrained psychic charlatan conjures up on a subject which is so potent to the person under consideration. What about the completely ridiculous presumption that it was ok to make such proclamations to groups of staff who had no right and no business and no reason to be part of any such information?. I do not know how it started or what the rationalization was for “karmic readings” but it turns my stomach to know it went on. Assuming for the moment that masters are real, is anyone to think they would condone public revelations about staff members’ karmic condition? I say no way, no how. To me that is a degradation and a breach of privacy and totally wrong. And to answer your question, although ECP privately discussed staff issues with me, no, i never would go to that space or place to attempt to peer into the private inner life of anyone and no i did not engage in sessions where she would ask me to perceive personal information that she then would write in a response letter under her name. She tried to get me to go there in the case of her own father, and i stood my ground and took a pass. It sounds to me like that pitiful process occured later in her descent into any means to capture the fascination and adulation of staff…of course, the power of portraying peoples’ karmic records could only be done by a true “messenger,” right? The whole concept is against everything we were led to believe is appropriate.
amina – Thank you for the clarification. Yes, it would be good to find a more solid source for that particular piece of information. It would be very interesting to know exactly where the text of that karmic reading orginated. Regarding your other observations, I think that even Sean would agree with your assessment of the general character of the church membership in terms of their general moral behavior as you noted. I wonder if Harry S. would concur?
Harry S. – Thank you again for the response. I find your objections to the 1997 karmic reading episode reasonable. I don’t claim any orginality in thinking on this issue, having picked this idea up from the writing of another, but I find merit in the opinion that one of the great evils of that episode was to fuel a condition of idolatry in the staff, and membership generally, in relationship to these individuals who had supposedly balanced more than 50% of their karma, making them ex-post-facto candidates for the ascension, raising them up as little embodied gods in the eyes of others. Idolatry was supposed to have been one of the great evils. And yet, here we have the messenger fanning the flames of that very evil.
On the subject of being “Blue-Rayed” by ECP (1973-1981), did she give you a pass on that, given your position? Or did you get your share of it too?
Sean, I’ll open on a personal note, not necessarliy for everyone, to tell you that my five kids and four grandchildren are all doing well. Genevieve and Bernadette my two eldest , whom you recall, are married and live nearby. In fact Joyce does daycare for their kids, so we see them almost everyday. Besides that I have Therese, studying nursing at the U of MN, Kent, our only guy, is down at the U of WI in Madison and we have 11 year old Isabelle here at home. So our kids are still a big part of our existence.
Joyce told me she had seen you at one of Mark Pelletier’s parties a couple of years ago when I was down in Mexico and I was sorry I missed you. Even though we decry the craziness and the bad aspects of the community I still have a great love for and fond memories of many who were there with us and were a part of our life. You and your sisters have this huge extended family. Sometime if I’m in the LA area I’ll touch base here and see if we can connect. I’d love to see you sometime.
Regarding Alex’s book: I haven’t talked, or corresponded with Alex Reichardt in decades, although I know that Joyce did send him Tom Miller’s video. That’s the extent of my co-author status. And I’m not sure I care enough to talk to him about it. What good would it do? Although I did care enough want to set the record straight with you!
Enough of the personal
I want to share on the postings my sense that what went on in the CUT / SLH community was far more complex than the victimization of people by a delusional person. But there was more to it. People joined for an infinite number of reasons and wanting something. Some got what they wanted and some didn’t. Many thought they had found what they sought in the form of a community of fellow spirtiual seekers led by a charismatic leader with a vision. Even if they couldn’t understand the entirety of “the teachings” they felt the momentum of the community . Many who arrived set aside their addictions, lack of direction and personal hang-ups to join, and within a few weeks or months they could look back and feel they were better off than when they walked in the door. That was a defining realization for them. Some were not even especially spiritually inclined people, they just found a place in life to plug in. And I suspect that for many, especially those that never got out, that feeling never left and that was or is enough for them; they continue to value the direction they get and the community that surrounds them. Those people were able to do some kind of mind trick where they did not notice the contradictions or instead attributed them to minor shortcomings of the messenger or her staff that were insignificant because the Masters had strange ways that were unknowable to lesser evolved humans. I think those people, may still be getting what they want from CUT and many are satisfied even as they deeply resent those who have left and criticize their community and leadership.
But for many others,including I think myself, that same dynamic that pulled them up when they joined the community eventually, as they grew up, became a restraint that kept them back, kept them from growing up, increasing in knowledge, taking on more responsibilities or and even growing spiritually. Over time a new dynamic took hold— the community held you back. I think this was especially true for those that ended up working in closer proximity to ECP. The relationship with her was that of being a perpetual child or being in denial about her controlling and erratic behavior. And I’m not denying that there were moments around her when the wackiness was temporarily set aside and she sparkled, she was charming and you felt a kinship, a sense of having a heart friend who was with you in this great cosmic endeavor. There undeniably was that. But it was also near impossible to be close to her and continue to believe that something entirely spiritual, as normally understood, was going on. At that point you had to either beat your concience and your mind down or you had to look for a way out. When Harry writes about those moments when he had to dig in his heels and refuse to go further with ECP, those are defining existential moments that many had. Maybe it was something as seemingly small as the hypocricy about near beer or , maybe it was the accumulation of many, many small things that brought that inner “Enough!” out and catapulted someone out and into the real world.
And probably you could say that there was another category of people that had a run in with someone up or down the leadership, or for some other reason was not alllowed stay long enough to mature in the community and outgrow it. They often left with a profound self-condemnation and sadness, or a resentment, or a desperate need to find comfort and belonginess whether it be in another church and community or relationship.
Probably someone else could list many, many categories of people that made up CUT, and each person’s story varied. And not every one was merely the story of someone being duped or duping others. It wasn’t all transparent and obvious when you were in that drama of the community that had it’s own momentum aside from that of ECP. I think that’s important to state. People sought and got something out of the experience and the fact is some are still back there thinking that they’re getting a real benefit. Yes, I know it’s delusional, but it’s also complicated.
Looking back over the last 65 comments on this article, it strikes me that many, many ‘chelas’ and people involved with TSL and CUT had serious questions about the reality of clairvoyance, and about the truth of clairvoyance within the ‘church’, all ‘churches’, their own lives, and life in general.
The discussions within the context of this article have been very enlightening for many of us, I’m sure, and I thank all those who have contributed. I has helped me enormously, and has contributed to my understanding of clairvoyance and several related activities.
Sincerely,
Nancy L. Couick-Rubinstein
Hi Alexandro,
Really great to get your perspective on here, and also to talk about your family. I remember when I was probably 8 or so and you had first arrived. I had a tent pitched out in the back yard in Colorado Springs. At that time, there were several staff members living out there in tents on the property. For me it was great fun to camp outside, but I’m not sure if you were one of those who initially living on the grounds waiting for a space to open up in the attic or whatever. There were people everywhere. I was just glad I had a warm room to go back to. It never really hit me that some people were actually living on the grounds.
But the main recollection I had about you is that you were just about to get married to Joyce. And as a kid I remember thinking that I’d never seen someone with such a big smile as you had when you talked about her. You were showing someone a ring, and tie and tie clip you were going to wear for the wedding I think. So I’m very happy to hear that smile led to a really strong and dynamic family that continues to grow. It was good to see Joyce at the Peltiers’ party. I agree with you wholeheartedly that the friendships in the community are/were extraordinary. It’s not just war bonding, like happened in the shelter cycle to a lot of people, but also genuine shared experience. So many people were seeking wholeness and a big part of that was finding each other.
I’m glad that both you and Harry are on here corroborating what I saw. I know that some of those times whether at the Land of Lanello, or on the beach in Malibu or at some kind of big staff barbecue it would have been easy to forget the strained nature of the experience. It was definitely a balancing act between the very real good times we were capable of having, the perception of “spiritual” good times, and the chastisements and crises that were always on tap.
For me as a kid, the crises spoiled my ability to enjoy the good times. Because there were enough moments where something fun was happening, and it was always overshadowed by some organizational crisis, world event, or the need to stop whatever we were doing and pray (decree). No family or staff event was complete without the requisite decree session. This was taken to the absurd many times on family vacations. I remember many occasions where we would be parked at the beach or at some “fun” spot and sitting in the car or van with mom for an hour or more decreeing watching everyone else just enjoying themselves. Sometimes we’d finish the decrees and I’d think she was going to let us out, and then she’d be fumbling with the rosary tapes and slam one of those in. Another 45 minutes gone. (That’s why I really liked it when the “surrender rosary” came out, it was only 20 or so minutes–the “evening” rosaries were shorter too–yay). By the time we finally got out after all those decrees, it always seemed anti-climactic. I wish I could have all those hours back.
But anyway, as you say, there were good times and bad times. At least there was no physical danger or abuse. Most people figured it out when they were good and ready. Growing up there, we really didn’t have a choice, and that’s one of the things that has made coming to terms with the hypocrisy and issues so difficult. Most people have to separate from their parents and realize they’re not perfect people. Doing that and letting go of God at the same time was an extraordinary effort. And in CUT, it was really all three, God, parents, and government (since, you know, Saint Germain was the real authority for the United States government, and Americans were chosen people).
Thanks everyone for participating in this thread. It has immense value to me and I’m sure to many others who have not commented. I get grateful email from all over the world.
Peace.
I think you deserve a big hand yourelf, Sean. A pat on the back from Virginia–and I hope to be in touch over the holidays. :)
Louis, hello,
I just read about what you wrote on the local elderly woman whom you knew that was dealing with entities & the Masters disapproval of her not decreeing enough. Was this around 93/94? I had met an elderly woman over the phone at Glastonbary & the following summer when I got in touch with her was suffering an attack by “the forces”. When I last called her she refused to have me stay at her place because of the attack she was enduring. I asked her if she contacted “Mother” about it, she said yes but no one answered her or responded. I wasn’t surprised. Growing up I learned thats how the Church delt with these sort of issues & there was nothing I knew in how to help her! This was one of the reasons I never became a tithing member of C.U.T.! Just a member of the Fraternity. What became of her? I’ve forgotten her name. I’m sure I’d remember it. She was a very devoted chela. I noticed these attacks happened often to the most devoted & dicaplined to decreeing & folowing of the teachings. Please let me know what became of her. I can’t remember why I didn’t keep in touch with her to make sure everything turned out alright with what she was facing! I often wondered what happened. I can still hear in my head her desperation on the phone to me of how hard she was fighting the forces, weilding that unbelievably rediculous sword & what “they” were putting her through!
When I remember these things/experiences I get such horrible headaches from knowing the lack of support & help so many didn’t recieve when such things were happening. I suffered tremendous mental anguish for not helping her. I wanted so much to be there with her, for her but she wouldn’t let me out of concern for me. Thk u.
Amen,
This was here in Vancouver, so different person.
I never owned one of those ceremonial Michael swords. Looked like a machete to me. Blavatsky started that nonsense about a stainless steel sword being able to cut through (non existent) astral entities, etc. Islam-o-tards are fond of a sword too, but I believe Blavatsky took her concept from Indian esoteric traditions.
This elderly lady also had a sword; it didn’t help.
I know this will sound utterly disrespectful to the lady you are talking about, but she sounds like a bit of a drama queen. Fighting off all those baddies by her self, rather than letting a fellow be her sisters keeper. The alleged multiplication ( 2 or more gathered) alone would (you’d think) make a great difference. Whether it was a case of drama queen, or just metal illness; you shouldn’t carry any guilt or stress over it.
I was at a fall conference (I think it was my second conference ever) and still relatively new. I spent the afternoon sessions in King Authors Court (usually decreeing) and observed a guy completely losing it. He was in a cold sweet, decreeing like mad, hunched over at times, almost growling the decrees. He kept changing seats, and made quite a ruckus doing it. He was obviously extremely disturbed. No one official confronted this. I finally walked up to a staff member and asked if things were alright? This lady in a most dismissive tone said, “Oh, he is an SU student.” Like that somehow changed things.
This don’t look below the level of the Christ attitude, and ignore the human creation, also had a tendency to come off as, we aren’t our brothers keeper.
Anyway Amen, I wouldn’t take on any anxiety over a situation, you had no hand in creating.
Now that the church is changing it’s tune and playing the role of ‘Community Building’… All that time spent ignoring the human, and they are showing themselves to be a bunch of rank amateurs when it comes to this new direction.
All that time suppressing the shadow, ignoring the human, and giving credence to the imaginary, has its price. That price manifests itself when sheriffs pull out there guns and shoot a ceremonial sword wielding deranged man. Stuff like that makes the papers, but many in that organization suffered from mental illness. Demons and entities were the scapegoats and decreeing the medication.
Staff, ignoring the tell tail signs, would have better served those individuals by intervening and encouraging them to seek medical treatment. Astreas, Michael Rosaries and dweller calls as a treatment, failed miserably.
really funny the episode about the "SU student" decreing like mad and the response of the people around
thank you for sharing this
Clear Seeing
Although this particular thread seems to be at or near its natural end, we can thank those who have read and commented, with valuable insights and experiences which have fleshed out the subject.
I would like to share a few final thoughts on the subject of Clairvoyance. Some might shun the idea of the very existence of clarivoyance, but i would suggest that we all have the capability to see clearly, to a greater or lesser extent, often based on the moment and context in which we are engaged, and varying due to the complexity of the personal or existential fabric of interweaving influences which comprise the objects of our vision and consideration.
We all have experienced moments of particularly clear inner realization…when formerly unresolved or unrevealed ideas emerge from the clouds into the sun of clarity. Clairvoyance does not need to take on a metaphysical connotation, although some seeing may be said to be above the physical sense of sight It is the act of self-directed or naturally heightening sight into natural processes which ordinaritly are above, or below, the baseline depth of vision. Moments of clarity can be brought on by neurochemicals, or exalting drugs, or relaxing meditation, or intentional focused concentration, or cognitive logic illuminated by the inner light, or many other factors. The hypnopompic and hypnogogic states, which are the brief moments when we are just falling asleep but still slightly conscious, and when we are emerging from sleep but not yet fully in our logical mindset, these times are known historically as the greatest moments when inventors and scientists and artists have seen the light, and brought down to earth the great inventions and revelations and lyrics and ideas for works of art. Clear seeing is not the sole possession of mystics, but is also experienced daily by agnostics, atheistics, deists, and everyone in between. Physical eyesight is the most dominant sense, and inner seeing is the most powerful means to wrest understanding and wisdom from that which our eyes look upon..
Those who for whatever reasons ended up in the role of seer, either for ECP or in the other movements going back as far as the Egyptian temples, the Oracles at Delphi, and the various esoteric schools, had a more formalized experience where inner perception and sensitivity to subtle influences was inculcated and cultivated for a purpose. But who is to say where on the scale of truth and accuracy any seer or any other person is, and it highlights the fact that those who see the most clearly are are likely to refrain from self aggrandizement and take the fruits of the vision into the domain of privacy and discretion. When you see an inner pattern of your friend or loved one or colleague or ill person, the purpose and value may be to help or support or raise up that person, so clear seeing is one of the blessings we can use in the pursuit and practice of pure selfless compassion.
The point i am trying to make is that to the extent we can look between the obvious lines, and peer into the deeper recesses of the natural and interpersonal worlds, the sense of sight strengthens, to our benefit and that of others. And it need not be considered the gift of a few but rather the power inherent in all to see clearly in a progressive discipline which builds on itself and increases over time. Clairvyance, clear seeing, is a good thing, which has been misused by some, and portrayed as a rare spiritual power by others, but which is really the power we all have to focus our fullest perception through the sense of inner sight.
Harry S.,
Well said! Couldn’t agree more. I’ve often thought that the word “spirituality” should be redefined as “self-awareness.” And self-awareness makes it easier to perceive what is truly going on with others vs. projection. And I agree also that sometimes keeping quiet about what you perceive is the most important part of all.
Interpersonal communications: the final frontier. People who handle it well, especially within groups, have my utmost respect.
Speaking of the “final frontier” a slight off-topic comment: Majel Barrett Roddenberry, widow of Gene died today. Gene was one of those visionaries, like Carl Sagan who left us way too soon. I’m sad to hear of his wife’s death, I’m sure that brain of hers contained many gems of experience and insight which are now gone forever from the world.
Louis,
thk you for your words, I wish I had them long ago. I too said & felt the same way about being there for her as you put it, being her sister keeper & as we were taught (part of the reason I chose the fraternity over church membership). I thought it was odd she didn’t want my support .
I had learned form one of ECP’s lectures on the use of the sword and or a dictation aswell about Madam B. having started it, thk u, I did know about this already. I just remember how much I wanted to just die out of embarrassment when a family friend got it for us at Christmas!! We couldn’t afford it so Yea! we couldn’t have one! boo when we got it for Xmass! My mom had been making me use a regular knife in the meantime before we got that sword, always using it during all the appropriat type of decrees – Micheal’s, Astrea’s, Dweller on the Threshold, Exorcism decrees etc. I personaly thought the sword was not right, just absolutly ridiculous and just simply too much. Things in C.U.T. were getting out of hand. But as a chela things happend to me to change my mind/oppinion & I too started going through the exact same things this lady and so many others went through & became desperate, also using the sword franticly! What else could I do? Get committed? Who wants that?! I’ve come to understand it becomes like an OCD type of problem. These teachings or religious beliefs & the phenomena of religion out playing itself in human beings drives me to understand it more fully after what I’ve experienced & have seen happen to all of us. Spiritual stuff is such a human reality, animals do not share so much of our issues/practices. They’re more real than we are! Life to me is as if it’s one big mythological outplaying of the heart, emotion, disires, dreaming, wishing. Life is weird! Not normal at all. As the Greeks believed, we are the Gods play things. Maybe were are just physics play things, constantly experimenting with us, seeing how we turn out when this or that happens. Sure feels that way! Like we’re life’s lab rats!
You make many points I too have had along with many others who’ve shared the same points & ideas, it’s just common collective knowledge to have them it seems. Man what we all could have ended up accomplishing w/ our lives instead of what we had! Ugh, sai la vie!
I too have come to see how much religion forgets the human, becoming so absorbed in all the out of touch beliefs. Thats one of the very reasons religion hasn’t wked. So so very true about the human, absolutly agree.
The story about the SU student are things I’ve witnessed to. And C.U.T. did nothing while critisizing all other religions for failing to help society because of thier corruption, when ECP was doing the same. Go figure, human nature of contridiction! Or is that self deniel that becomes strengthen from everyone around that person not speaking up against thier delusions & misconceptions? Not judging, just pointing out. I too feel that this is something I contributed to, not sticking to my views stronger & raising my voice against it all.
Well I don’t mean to carry any anxiety over it, it’s something personal about how I function/react to unfortunate events that enter my life that I could have done something about. My brain just goes thru a spin. I have always been this way about so many things in life. I can’t watch the news anymore because how upset I get now from all the uglyness. See I grew up learning to always at least pray about this or that wrong, having the hope & faith it was being taken care of because I prayed, cared. Now I’m learning to just put it out of my head & say what a world?!! Geez! Enoughs enough! The headach that comes w/ it is inevitable though. It’ll go away in time as I grow into my new person.
Thks so much for your response & support. I appreiciated all that you wrote! It’s all on target. Have a great Xmass & New Year, to everyone else aswell, have an awesome time with family & friends!
Peace & Love,
Amen Sigala
Harry S. – There is a question outstanding. On December 10, I asked this question: On the subject of being “Blue-Rayed†by ECP (1973-1981), did she give you a pass on that, given your position? Or did you get your share of it too?
William,
I do not want this thred to veer too far towards being about my personal experiences, which i fear may already be the case. It was intended by Sean to be on the subject of clairvoyance and ECP. Since your latest questions are somewhat off-topic for this discussion, either Sean can give me your email or we can take these subjects up if and when an appropriate thread is established.
Harry S. – While you are chewing on the previous question, I have another one that might be easier to answer. During all the time you were part of the TSL/CUT organization, did you ever get any (inner and personally relevant) indication at all that the Ascended Masters were real?
Harry S. – The dictations from 1980 onwards contained many references to the idea that ECP was a clear channel for the ascended masters to give important path-related teachings to those who came into her personal orbit. Students were led to believe that her word on a particular issue to a particular person often originated in a Light Impulse from the Heart of one or another Ascended Master, on a point on which the person needed some assistance. And then too, in her sermons, and personal talks to the students, she often spoke of being shown various things on the inner by the ascended masters. And then too, she made at least one public statement regarding the fact that she was not in control of what the Masters would show her, or when, that they extended their input only when it suited their purpose.
Given this situation in which the communication channels were clear and open between the ascended masters and her own heart, a fact that she herself was aware of, why did she seek to know things that the ascended masters obviously were not ready to show her?
Why didn’t anyone point out to her, that if the ascended masters wanted her to know something, that they would show her? And if they didn’t show her, that this was just as much a statement of truth, as a vision of paradise? Why didn’t anyone point out to her that her desire to see what the ascended masters would not show to her, bordered on an inordinate desire, which would be an inroad for forces on the astral plane which were not of the Light? Did you ever discuss this with her? Did you ever discuss with her the idea that this “seer” thing bordered on disobedience, and was an expression of a lack of trust in the ascended masters themselves?
FOOD FOR THOUGHT: If you have legs and you decide to cut them off you will not be able to use your legs again. Likewise if you have a spiritual power and you decide to abuse it you will not be able to use that power again. All part of the unwritten LAWS governing life.
Bediiako,
You're making false analogies all over the place. Legs you can see and feel, as opposed to "spiritual power" which is a subjective construct at best. Claiming "misuse" of spiritual power presupposes it's objectively "real" and that there's some governing entity who makes "laws" and revokes your spiritual drivers license if you abuse it, so to speak. This is, to put it politely, hogwash.
Also, please do not use multiple comment handles. Pick one and stick with it. Thanks.
Just curious, do you think it possible for anyone to have an ability to access memories or experiences of other people?
I think this could only happen through the development of brain-machine interfaces. This is still very much sci-fi, although fMRI machines are now allowing thoughts to be read. You can actually tell what a person is looking at by scanning their brain.
Ray Kurzweil has a lot to say about this, have you read any of his books? I would say that the problem of subjectivity will be severe. Different people would interpret memories and experiences very differently. You'd have to figure out how to pass along the subjective frame of mind, along with the experience. A lot of work to do before we get there. But experience is simply information processing, so I don't see any theoretical barrier to sharing experiences and memories. Kurzweil calls this "experience beaming," kind of like video streaming, but with all the other experiential information included.
I've included this story and a few others of Sean's so far in a thread I've (QuickHitCurepon) made called "The most cunning of all the cults, the Church Universal & Triumphant." It's in the On Topic Section just below the main forum. If anyone feels really strongly about posting a comment in it, before a whole new venue, they could sign up right now with Offtopic.com, a large forum. There is about a three-week waiting process to get approved there before you can view in all the forums. I expect and hope my thread will last another week, but when it starts moving towards the graveyard, the rules are that you should not post in an old thread if it is at most one month old. When done there, I will probably make the same thread at thoughts.com where I am QuickHitGondolin. I will also alter all my posts to fit into my blog there. You don't even have to be a member to view it at Thoughts.com So look for it! So far it's going incredibly fantastic with the current one. It would be great also to see some new posters at Thoughts on this subject. Great stories, Sean! Take it easy.
Ok, if potentially we may be able to make a machine that can do that, do you not think its possible that human beings may have that possibility too? There have been some instances where it looks like that is now possible even though it may not be possible to recreate it consistently.
TitforTat, you'd have to theorize as to how that would work. Otherwise, it's just speculation. I haven't heard of any legitimate research supporting reliable human-to-human telepathy of any kind.
We know brain-machine interfaces can be built because they've already made brain-controlled limbs, cursors, etc., and the above mentioned fMRI research. Now it's just a question of refinement. What may happen in the future in this regard is an open question. While we may extrapolate from present to future science to a certain degree, I don't find that kind of speculation about future discoveries of the supernatural to be at all useful. See my earlier article on the Radio Wave Argument.
Blacksun
Thanks for the reply. I know a person who occasionally gets information on people that seem to defy logic as we understand it. She cant control it, nor does she try to take advantage of it in any way, yet the instances are so accurate it makes me wonder if there is some sort of telepathy or something going on. I know it cant be controlled as is needed in most testing, but Im still left with the experience of what she does that leaves me open to the possibility that there is more to it than I can understand. By the way Im not trying to convince you of it, Im just relaying something interesting that happens in my life on a semi regular occasion.
I would say it's confirmation bias, i.e. counting the hits, ignoring the misses. This is a very seductive way of thinking. "Wow, I was just thinking about calling you when the phone rang!" A scientist would say: how many times did you think of the person and the phone didn't ring? You don't take note of those kinds of occasions (misses). Simple example, but very common and misleading phenomenon. Same thing with your friend. How many times does she take a lucky guess as evidence, while dismissing the times when she's wrong? This is a widespread cognitive error. We have to rely on controlled evidence-based testing. According to that, there is no evidence for "esp."
Blacksun
I agree with your analogy, but what Im talking about is much more specific, even though it is quite isolated and isnt something she does on command. One event I know of had her saying names of people she didnt know and events that happened in the past by these said people. The events were also only known by immediate family members. She knew none of the family. Never met any of them before or since. The family member she did talk with has never talked with her again. She did confirm the statements though. Very bizarre, and trust me I would love to know how she guessed it, or I would love to know how she picked up the subtle cues to make the claims. No one can prove it either way, its very baffling to say the least. The one thing in life that gets me though is when people make absolute statements, especially about things we cant be absolute on.
Dont tell me you know God, but also dont tell me there is no Creator. Neither can be verified. There are things in our lifetime that will never be proven by you or I or anyone else. This doesnt mean they didnt happen. Your example with Leonardo was perfect. Im sure science may end up proving lots of "supernatural" things.
TitforTat,
Right, but that doesn't mean both have an equal probability of being true. The 50/50 probability assertion is part of the apologist technique of proof-burden shifting.
It is a very small, but non-zero probability there is some kind of conscious creator of the universe. But since we don't know anything about what or who that is, then it's not really useful to talk about it. The idea of a creator is also subject to infinite regress (who created the creator, etc.) so really philosophically solves nothing.
The probability of a Judeo-Christian God is even smaller still. So when you say "can't be verified" that has much more bearing on the assertions of theists than atheists. Theists make broad and sweeping claims about their god, who he is, what he thinks, what his laws are.
Atheists do not make a positive claim, they say when you talk about God, "define your terms" and "show me the evidence."
You're sure? Sounds pretty much like baseless assertion to me. See Leonardo described flight, but he couldn't fly. So if we want to talk about the supernatural, we have to wait until someone can discover or describe it in a scientific way. Leonardo crashed. He had the right idea, but he crashed. We didn't know his idea was right for hundreds more years. So that should be a cautionary tale for people who get too far ahead of themselves with assumptions.
I think people need to wait to make their supernatural claims until they know what they are studying. But then, it wouldn't be supernatural anymore, it would just be another natural phenomenon. I'd welcome the study of thought transmission, if it existed. I just doubt that it does, until I see positive repeatable evidence.
TitforTat,
Another statement of the scientific case against the existence of God.
http://atheism.about.com/od/argumentsagainstgod/a…
You're sure? Sounds pretty much like baseless assertion to me. (blacksun)
Lol. I guess I should have left out the word sure. The thing is its important that people have vision for things. So long as they dont try to take advantage of people with it. Leonardo, at the time, was wrong too. Im not condoning the idea of a theistic creator, but it seems to me that even science is looking for a starting point or creation event. Now because consciousness is part of my existence is it wrong to think that it could be part of the creation point that I ultimately arise from? Again, you or I may never know with in our lifetime if its true or not. But is it really useless to discuss these matters? I liken it to "spontaneous remission" in some diseases. They are not sure why these things sometimes happen but it sure looks like there is something there that we dont quite understand yet. If anything can be gleaned from the questioning, maybe its a better understanding of each other. And that is always a good thing.
Hello there
Thanks for text.
About Harry wrote he said she doesnt had this "power". But while Mark he said he saw words in fire like
a ticker tape in front of his inner vision. So does Mark had this power or these was all acting ? Maybe you know
this stuff about Harry and you can answer, which religion/philosophy is Harry practicing right now ? And
he stills decrees ? I just wanna know for enlight me. Thanks.
ECP fulfilled the biblical prophecies of Rev 2 and Rev 17. One of her key followers was also part of the biblical prophecies in Rev 12, he stood against the real Messenger of the Covenant. Messiah Joseph who was promised by the LORD God.
What is concerning now is the sheer numbers of people in the USA that ECP's work as impacted upon.. The biblical prophecies predicted that she would be put on a bed of suffering and her children would be struck down. As we know she like to be called Guru Ma as such everyone involved with her are told to repent in Rev 2. Its important that they now understand TESHUVAH and how to return to all that is sacred and pure.
Rev 18 is also about the USA, it is the only nation that fits the criteria of the prophecy.
So yes the LORD God does exist and so does his Son.
Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God.
Eleazar Solomon, a Jew in Guanauato, Mexico, to past or present members of the Summit Lighthouse
A number of times in my life, I was either handed material published by Summit Lighthouse teachings, or met people involved with Elizabeth Prophets’ teachingsI . I was never attracted to the material or the leader of Summit Lighthouse. Or Dianetics/Scientology. Or Mormonism or the teachings of the Witnesses, among many other deluded groups and their leaders. After reading all the various comments on this website thread, I am saddened by the obvious fact that she was very delusional and had misled so many people to believe her assertions of being a “messenger for ascended beings”. Some of you apparently suffered much more than others and have even “thrown the baby out with the bathwater”, meaning that ALL spirituality, even the existance of G-d is discounted along with the delusions asserted by the leader.
BUT, I have to tell you that yes, there is a way to find out whether G-d exists, whether higher worlds exist and the beings who live within those worlds. SEAN “BlackSun” in particular, I feel suffered very deeply as her son, and has rejected the whole gamut of “spiritual” subjects because they “can’t be quantified or otherwise determined by scientific (materialistic) methods”. I’m very sorry that he feels he must take this position. At the same time, I feel this website is doing an invaluable service to those who either have been part of the “community of believers”, or who still are and maybe need some clear guidance out of the delusion they became a part of. ALL of our life experiences and decisions partake of the spiritual dimension, whether we see it or not. Or choices determine whether we advance or fall back, and must retrace the steps again. Wisdom is gained one step at a time, very very slowly.
I too have come across similar “leaders” of so-called spiritual groups that were self-agrandizing, intentionally deluding their followers, but highly effective speakers. I would say that maybe 98% of all religious groups that I have met in life are deluded about what they believe, but that the real good that the followers get is from having a community of people to relate to.. I think Nancy Couick shows a very balanced way of dealing with what went on within the community: while clearly realizing the unreal aspects of what occured and condemning it, she also has taken the good and useful elements from her experience and acknowledges them too. For her, both the “good” and the “bad” were learning experiences that she sees as valuable.
I have studied nearly everything I could find on esoteric teachings, and gradually acquired a personal library of over 500 books on subjects related to those teachings. While very interesting and informative, intellectual study alone will NOT gain admission into higher worlds or “G-d’s presence” sadly. There are and always have been individuals that have attained that “clairvoyance” or “inner vision” that many of the followers believed Ms Prophet had. Those that can sense the subtle realms clearly are very few though. And, it probably “takes one to know one”, which means that when determining who really has messages from higher beings/worlds requires that the person have a certain level of spiritual development already.
For all of us who are “seeking”, there is an appropriate level of teachers, events, or books/writings that will help us on our way and that comes to us as we evolve or devolve. But, going from an extreme of immersion in gullibilty/false leaders to a complete rejection of everything spiritual is only, in my opinion, a temporary defense mechanism for the pain that one suffered (as was clear from reading these remarks by some people). May we all progress on the PATH with discrimination, and get up again when we fail to find the ultimate reason for our existance.
For all of you that have left the fold of Summit Lighthouse teachings, you’re now ready for your next adventure, having learned the profound lesson of spiritual discrimination (and very painful one also) in this last adventure with ECP, as you call her. I hope you do NOT give up seeking true spirituality wherever you may find it. It’s not easy to live at the end of the KALI YUGA, the end of the MAYAN GREAT CYCLE, the END of DAYS of Judaism, where the greatest darkness is all about us, before the cycle brings great change.
Ahaa, its good conversation regarding this article here at this web site, I have read all that,
so now me also commenting at this place.
Wow Sean, I feel sorry for you. You believe in absolutely Nothing but materialism. Move over Karl Marx, Lenin and John Lennon. May you make t his physical world a better "Hell" than it already is! (because of people like you as well as the religious fanatics of the extreme right and the materialists of the extreme left) God ahead! Keep trying!! But I have a better idea which is really Budha's idea – it's called the Middle Way.
Wow Sean – You Really Do Believe in NOTHING of the super-physical. You are a True Materialist – Move Over Karl Marx, Lenin and John Lennon. Good look in making this Material Realm a Better Hell (because that is what it is thanks to the extreme right religious fanatics, and the Extreme Left Materialists such as yourself) – God Ahead! Keep trying and fighting each other and ruining it for everyone else in between. I think I like Buddha's idea better- THE MIDDLE WAY!
Hi – this thread is probably quite old; still I'd like to chip in with my few cents.I was in the US in the beginning of the nineties and had a hard time connecting with the the more subtle energies. Having known about SL for a time, I became a member and instantly got in contact with the hgher energies abounding in the US. Also attended a seminar where ECP spoke. I am sure that she was very, very sensitive as I had a personal experience face to face with her during one of her presentations. Recently watched a video with the new head of CUT, and there too was an intense downpouring of celestial energy during it.
Personally I've been attacked by many different energies over the years and learned how to counter them – in part by using some of the decrees from SL/CUT. I'm saddened by the many examples of gross violations that have taken place and can truly understand why many people feel offended, misused etc – but not having had any part in all that, sts, as an outsider – I just want to put in a kind word for the efficacy of some of the teachings/methods. We are not in general aware of the many spiritual and other energies that surround us and therefore any kind of protection and cleansing is better than none at all. But of course within reasons!
There is a teacher of something called Matrix Energetics by the name of Richard Bartlett. I have attended some of his seminars. I am a little taken aback when he mentions the spiritual community in Montana he was part of as well as his reverence of Elizabeth Claire Prophet , for whom he says he was a doctor for.
Can anybody shed some light on Mr. Bartlett's behavior and role in Cut? I have read many many books including those of Summit University and I can see that many of the concepts from CUT are making their way in his teachings in his seminars.
All prophets come to warn and to extol. It is up to us to change. We are in the great tribulation and the darkness that has covered the land has been upon us for a very long time. We have been experiencing a return of extreme negative energy. To be exact, 25,800 years of returning negative karma. It is only by the grace of pure energy(God) that we are still experiencing the physical octave. Elizabeth and Mark Prophet were prophesied by John the beloved on the island of Patmos in the book of revelation. They are called the Two Witnesses. Our lives are pre-ordained but not predestined. We can lose our souls and become castaways if we choose.
HI Black sun journal.
I just found this page a couple days ago, I have been reading a lot about ECP and your posts.
I was in the teachings for almost 3 years and I remember the first time I saw a video of ECP I thought she could use all those rings to give food to poor people, I remember, I felt almost offended, but the people there have an explanation for everything and in time I believed she was the true and the only messenger, I always had questions but I remember feelings really bad about doubting her and the teachings, then I would make a rosary asking to surrender my "human mind".
I also remember one time I friend of mind ( he's been for a long time in the teachings) warned me not to read anything "bad" about ECP from her kids… ( they really believe Sean is a fallen one ). Now I can see all the tricks, they work the same for every religion, keep people away from uncomfortable realities and keep following stupid rules that most of the time don't make any sense. I cannot deny I still feel fear and a profound sense of disappointment and pain for reading all this stuff, I mean, after all, what brought me to the teachings was a sense of wanting to know the truth and that is what is taking me out, I not longer have contact with people from the TC.
I lost a lot of friends and it is really painful, but I need to read all of this, so, I am really grateful to you Sean and all the people that make this page possible.
I am now learning a lot from Richard Dawkins, Sam harris and other great people that are opening my eyes about how toxic religion can be, but none of them ever mention the "ascended masters" that is why I find this page amazing and really useful for my process of letting go of my delusions about GOD and all these lies!
Again, Thank you.
Greetings from Colombia.