It’s been an interesting couple of days over on the Amazon site.Prophet’s Daughter has gotten up into the low 2,000’s ranking overall, charting as high as #11 in Biographies and Memoirs > Leaders & Notable People > Religious. Congratulations, Erin!
At the same time, CUT members just can’t seem to refrain from piling on with their ad hominem attacks. It’s actually entertaining to watch. It started with an email written by Virginia L. Genito, who hadn’t even read the book. Her husband read it and told her about it, leading to this sputtering ejaculation of indignation:
Please feel free to send this letter to all of your contacts. ~ Joseph and Virginia Genito
Dear Friends of Light,
We write this with much sadness in our hearts. We speak of Prophet’s Daughter, by Erin Lynn Prophet, which Joseph has just read from cover to cover. We deem it a betrayal of the Guru, especially at Erin’s level of initiation. The book is a depraved desecration that dishonors her mother and father by exposing the most intimate parts of their lives that should be kept between them. She leaves her parents lying bare on the desert sands, professing to love them while drudging up the past when most have let it go. And what proof do we have that these anecdotes are true? We have only Erin’s word for these allegations.
Erin’s stories are paraded in a compelling (if also condescending) way to make us believe we are reading what really happened—to convince us that the writer is telling the truth. The message the reader actually perceives is a scandalous account of a Messenger and community supposedly built on myth, manipulation and corruption. In our view, Erin’s scheme, a skillful organization of competing elements, suffused with her own self-reflection, is intended to guarantee this outcome.
Our society has been conditioned to believe that it is OK to fling allegations of another’s most personal and private life (Hollywood style) before the masses for their entertainment. But gross distortions and even falsehoods in Erin’s account are readily apparent to those of us who were there during the “shelter cycle” and who knew one or both Messengers. This and Erin’s clear bias call into question her book’s accuracy, reliability and credibility.
In the book Erin professes to want her humanness and a normal life of sex, alcohol and rock music. After such a magnificent opportunity and all of her training, we would have thought at the very least that Erin would have wanted to make her humanness Godlike. On page 245 she professes to want to become a decent human being, with the emphasis on human. What decent human being would write this book knowing what it would do to her parents and many others? It seems that Erin’s god has become her own humanness, to fashion and worship the golden calf all over again (Exodus 32:1-6).
We ask Erin and everyone who reads this book, what moves you, God or human situations–or maybe a little of both? Erin, “If your father were here, would you sit on his lap and let him read this book to you?” Where is your compassion for your parents?
The Divine Mother will allow her children to play their parts in this grand drama of life moving ever forward. But be assured that this part played by Erin Lynn Prophet causes tears of sorrow to fill the eyes of the Divine Mother and run down her cheeks in hopes that Erin’s soul may be able to free herself from the consequences of sin. Vengeance is mine saith the Lord. Erin, may God have mercy on your soul.
Where would we and tens of thousands of people be today if it were not for Mark Lyle Prophet, Elizabeth Clare Prophet, Church Universal and Triumphant, The Summit Lighthouse and the Teachings of the Ascended Masters? We would certainly be stuck in our base humanness and not have had a chance to rise out of it into our ascension.
We ask everyone to pray for the victory of Church Universal and Triumphant.
Holy Peace be with you,
Joseph David Genito and Virginia Lee Genito
Whoa! “Tears of sorrow fill the eyes of the Divine Mother.” Such melodrama. A pathetically typical recitation of the kind of sentimental nonsense that comprises religious apologetics. “May God have mercy on your soul.” Eternal threats of hellfire are always a nice refuge when facts are in short supply. Not a single example of an error or refutation of a word Erin said. Amazing. And I’ve heard Virginia is a Ph.D. candidate?
Marshall Haley then took up the cause, with an equal flash of ‘righteous anger’:
Dear Friends,
I am grateful to Joseph and Virginia for undertaking a task that many of us intuitively dreaded: reading Erin’s salacious ‘expose’ (betrayal) of Mother and our Church.
Erin’s recent letter, emailed to some of us, alleged that she primarily wrote this book to explain to us her reasons for giving up her training to become a messenger. As Joseph references, above, she also explains that she wanted to pursue a ‘normal’ human life that would include sex, alcohol and rock music.
We might find irony in the apparent fact that Erin has not yet discovered some of the most universally recognized human values, for example:
1) Every family mandala — and could we not include a close-knit, spiritual community in that category? — inherently involves an unwritten ‘social contract’ that no family member will betray the intimate confidences of any other member. By contrast, have any of us seen a book written by her mother that criticizes Erin for any of her life choices? Might we suppose that her mother had some insight into her soul?
2) “Honor thy father and mother.” What, do we imagine, would her father say to Erin about these efforts?
Apparently, Erin has chosen to use her high-priced, private-university education (paid for by Keepers of the Flame) in a desperate attempt to pad her pockets by denigrating the sincere life work of both her parents.
Her claim of only wanting to explain her choices to us appears to be a thinly veiled dupe to get TSL/C.U.T. associates to buy her book, hiding her actual intent to destroy those associates’ faith in her mother and father and in our own beliefs.
Don’t we have to ask ourselves, “What kind of person would find satisfaction in reading such a sad testimony of arrested-adolescence resentment toward one’s parents?” We might only go so far as our nearest grocery store check-out line to find that answer (among “The National Enquirer” and other such ‘normal’ accounts of all-too-human life in America).
Hopefully, this writing exercise might help Erin purge her soul and four lower bodies of the related substance that seems to testify to perversions of virtually every line of the Cosmic Clock, and that she might come to realize to what extent she has thereby compromised her own integrity.
How interesting that Erin — born an Aquarius, and once given an opportunity to support our common goals — goes to such trouble to attempt to undermine the “Aquarian Age Gospel” that her parents gave their lives to publish for the soul salvation of any so blessed to gratefully receive it.
Although Erin apparently no longer believes this, we are taught that the sponsoring Master of our Sun sign greets us as we leave embodiment (if our soul is still so connected). Can we imagine what Saint Germain might have (had?) to say to her on that day?
In Loving Gratitude for Opportunity,
Marshall K. Haley
Of course Marshall dreaded reading the book. It might have caused him to actually be forced to get out of his soft purple haze of a spiritual comfort zone. Now he doesn’t have to, since Joseph Genito did his reading for him. And they can all reach their single-minded conclusion based on one man’s trembling report: “It’s bad, really bad. It’s nothing but sex and scandal.” Well done!
We are the Borg, resistance is futile.
It’s nice how Marshall’s “loving gratitude” includes accusations of “arrested adolescence,” and compares Erin’s writing to tabloid journalism, with a measure of guilt thrown in for her very education. If that’s love, Marshall, what do you say when you hate someone?
Not to be outdone, “John Flammo” cut and pasted this one-star review “A Hall of Mirrors” from Virginia Genito’s email (nearly verbatim) over on Amazon, to which I responded:
John Flammo’s “review” is shamelessly plagiarized from an email currently being circulated by longtime CUT member Virginia L. Genito. I doubt he has even read the book. The only thing worse than the dishonesty of posting someone else’s writing as his own is believers’ tendency to circle the wagons and march in mental lock-step.
John: think for yourself. Virginia’s email does not address the truth or falsity of any of Erin’s statements, only to her dissatisfaction at hearing them. I challenge you or anyone to point out any factual errors in her book. I can tell you, you won’t find them. Your real problem is just how inconvenient the truth she’s spoken has become to your belief system.
Next is Diana Poole, with “I (Eye) Witness” who continued the ad hominems in her one-star review:
I believe that Erin’s problem is with herself. Anyone who knew Erin knew of her temperament. She claims to have lost her teenage years when the only thing she really lost is a preconceived idea (from her twenties) what she thought her teenage years should have been like because they were not like the lives of teenagers outside the church. She did not have sex and alcohol. Poor Erin. She blames this on her mother, so now she wants to destroy her mother and the church. Any good psychologist will tell you that if you are putting the blame outside of yourself, you have a problem.
[…]
Are Erin’s allegations true or untrue? Let a court higher than ours decide. What matters here is each one’s direct experience with God and the witness of those who experienced strikingly similar things–not in the emotional and rational realm–but in the realm of Spirit.
Hmm. “Let a higher court decide.” Is it just me, or is the spirit world and afterlife the refuge of scoundrels who have run out of arguments?
Next, like the other reviews listing only “Montana” as a location, came CUT member Michael de Los Angeles with “Pathetic and Sad” his one-star denunciation:
This book is a weary reflection of Erin’s psychological non-resolution with her mother. The fact that her mother (who is incapacitated) cannot even respond to Erin’s accusations and fabrications is an indication of Erin’s cruelty to her mother. The book is laced with inaccuracies, hatred of her parents and is more a mirror of Erin’s guilt about leaving her position in the church and her need for recognition by others, than of setting the record straight about her mother, her church or the shelter cycle. Don’t waste your money buying this. It is mostly fiction.
I responded:
Having been present for most of these events, Prophet’s Daughter only corroborates what I saw. I can attest to Erin’s laser-sharp accuracy. In many cases, Erin tells the story more charitably than it deserves. In my discussions with her, she has always erred on the side of compassion for believers. Given her position, I also think it took tremendous courage to write this book. CUT members who don’t like what they’re reading need to open their eyes and take a hard look at themselves. Erin’s holding up the mirror for you, so go ahead: give yourselves a good stare. It’s hard to admit you’ve been duped–I understand. But denial only makes the problem worse. (It’s called chasing “sunk costs.”) The ad hominem attacks are so predictable–I’ve been dealing with them since 2001. Faced with overwhelming evidence and damning testimony from the ultimate insider, all you can do is attack her character. Really, really weak.
Then today, another one-star rip-off of the original Genito email, this time not cut-and-pasted, but paraphrased, from Orlando E. Johnson, “A Sad and Cynical Tone:”
My critique of this book by Erin is not about the account of shelters, court cases and other events that happened in the past. It is about the tone in which this book is written, a tone of resentment, bitterness, sarcasm and holding people’s spiritual beliefs in derision. Would any parent want their child to write about them in this way? Can the author honestly say she loves her mother when she uses personal anecdotes and interpretation to publicize the private elements that exist in every household? Can we honestly feel sorry for an author who received an amazing education and so many other benefits from the very movement that she criticizes? Can we believe her when she says she wants to be a “decent human being” and at the same time mocks a legacy that is truly tremendous? If you are looking for a more balanced, helpful and uplifting account of Elizabeth Clare Prophet’s character, work and struggles, I recommend you read the book Masters, Miracles and Mirth by Therese Emmanuel Grey. For an exceptional account of the early years of the Summit Lighthouse, read All for the Love of God by Alex Reichardt.
I just couldn’t believe my eyes. CUT members are so far removed from reality, not only can they not digest the facts even when they are spoon-fed, they can’t even figure out their own ways of relating to the material. It’s like the same person wrote all 4 of these reviews–and for that matter, both the emails that started the process.
We are the Borg.
Propaganda hasn’t been this tight in the U.S. since the McCarthy era. Worst of all, these believers and those who agree with them don’t understand that Erin has actually tried to be sympathetic in her book. Certainly far more than I would have. After seeing their angry attacks on her character, Erin might want to rethink her strategy. As I’ve long realized, you can’t win with believers. As long as you coddle their fantasies, you’re their darling. Erin was always the “good daughter”–until now. As she’s no doubt realizing, break the believer’s spell and they spit you out like a rotten oyster.
My response to Orlando E. Johnson:
This review practically screams “didn’t read the book.” So far this makes 4 one-star reviews from longtime CUT members and staffers who dislike Erin’s conclusions and wish they didn’t have to face the harsh reality of the shortcomings of their “guru.” One of the 4 cut and pasted his “review” from an email, and this one seems to have paraphrased the same Virginia Genito email. This is a place for REVIEW of the material, not expressing an opinion on whether or not an author should have written it. The book is published, people. Obviously Erin thought long and hard about what she was going to include, and made very careful and difficult choices.
Regarding Alex Reichardt’s book. I was there during the time period he discusses, and watched the interactions between Alex and my dad. Regardless of how Alex may feel about it, they don’t provide a flattering picture of my father. But I will refrain from commenting further on Alex’s book until I’ve read it. Some of the same people who have given Erin one-star reviews are gushing with five-star flattery for Reichardt. How can they do this when they weren’t even there? How can they discount the reports of people like my sister and I who were? This is cherry-picking, denial, and intellectual dishonesty of the highest order. What does this kind of response to Erin’s truthful book say about the mental integrity of the CUT belief system? Beliefs about religion and spiritual icons should be subject to the same scrutiny as other beliefs, especially when they concern hypocrisies of leaders responsible for the well-being of thousands.
Erin took great pains to explain her mother’s spiritual rationale. She gave her mother the benefit of the doubt, even when her actions caused harm. Erin ultimately concludes that her mother meant well, regardless of the outcome. I don’t see how much more charitably Erin could have told the story without actually bending the facts. It is stunning to watch how believers can twist Erin’s extra effort to be fair to the story. I watched this book evolve to the point where I consider that it is in many ways fairly sympathetic to the ascended master belief system. But believers have such a siege mentality, they clearly can’t see when they’ve been thrown a bone. Regardless of how damaging it may be to their mental house of cards, the truth is the truth, and my sister has told it impeccably.
Let the games continue. Some friendly advice to CUT members: I was once in your shoes, and if you can’t do better than these despicable examples of character assassination, you should stay on the sidelines. I’m actually embarrassed for you. Even when I used to be a minister, proponent, and defender of your faith, I still cared about what was true.
Sorry if I sound like a bad sport, but I’m looking forward to reading a real critical review of Prophet’s Daughter, with an actual dispute of a fact or an argument (gasp!). Apparently I have to state the obvious: you concede by default when, rather than make an argument, you paint my sister as an ungrateful scheming (yet depressed and suicidal) fallen betrayer who needs God’s mercy on her soul.
57 comments
I appreciate your frank expose of the lack of any sound arguments present in these letters, as well as your ever present willingness to cross and smash the invisible barriers of feigned "respect" for the propagation of fairytale dogma.
Damn Dad. You seriously kick ass sometimes.
Sean, perhaps you mean ad feminam? Even though I agree that the posts you provided from current CUT members are basically lame and poorly argued, there is no way you can know whether they’ve read the book or not. Actually, I have read the book and will be writing my own review soon.
I take you at your work that you are interested in a real critical review of the book because that’s just what I intend to do. And, yes, again, I’ve read the book – twice as a matter of fact.
I am troubled by your sister’s reliance on disreputable “scholars” of religion such as Gordon Melton and Lowell Stricker. Stricker said that Jonestown was not a cult. Melton has defended Scientology and published a ridiculous study of CUT, which he later tried to distance himself from. These are the sources Erin is using to understand new religions?
I was also surprised by some of the things she left out. She mentions the Cosmic Honor Guard, but does not mention Kenneth Paolini by name or his book, “500 years of imaginary friends”. Does that mean she didn’t read that book or just dismisses it? She talks about one coercive deprogramming attempt, but does not mention LaVerne Collins Macchio. Does that mean she doesn’t know or doesn’t think that is important? The Macchio case was huge in the press, and had an impact on the whole CUT community.
But, there’s much more to come.
Victoria,
Technically ad feminem would be correct, but ad hominem is the well-recognized general form to describe attacks on character rather than content. As far as whether or not someone has read the book? It’s pretty damning evidence when your review looks nearly identical to 4 others and a chain email. I agree I have no evidence that they "didn’t" which is why I say "seems like" or "practically screams" instead of "didn’t." I make it clear that it’s my opinion they probably didn’t read it.
I agree that some of Erin’s treatment of the religion is overly sympathetic, and I would welcome your review. If anything, this has been my beef with the book also. However I understand that she’s trying to give at least some credibility to the ascended master tradition to soothe believer’s sensibilities. I doesn’t look like it worked, does it? But the fact that I differ with her on this point doesn’t in any way diminish the accuracy of the events she reported nor what I take away as the clear cautionary message of the book.
Kenneth Paolinis book 400 Years of Imaginary Friends is out of print now. He clearly has bigger fish to fry since his son has become a runaway best selling author with the "Inheritance" series, currently #1 on Amazon. I’m very happy to have a signed copy of 400 Years from when he and Talita first published it.
Sean, yes, true and thanks for the acknowledgement. Even though Kenneth and Talita’s book is now out of print, it was available for years. Erin doesn’t have to believe it, but it contains insider information that could have been confirmed or dismissed by her. I think the book, regardless ot its current status, is an important consideration if one is honestly examining the history of CUT.
It is my impression that Erin overcorrected by not reading ex-member accounts. This is certainly her right to do so, but if she is trying to face the truth, some of the reading of these accounts is necessary IMO. She did briefly mentioned your sister, Moira’s, and Kathy Schmook’s book but by name only — no mention of content. Reading Purely for Prophet is pretty hair raising. I would have liked to see her response to the Paolini’s and Schmook’s books even if it was to say they were overblown.
My general impression of the book is that Erin has a lot of fear. She is to be commended at some level for facing that. It was almost as if she wrote the book with one hand covering her eyes. Frankly, she had no duty to write or explain anything. I do think she addressed some things, and I was sensitive to her process. I hope she is able to reconcile some things now.
That said, Sean, you and your sisters (and younger brother) did not get to choose your parents. I wish you all peace and sincere good wishes. Your story is a family tragedy of dramatic proportions and I’m glad some of this is coming out now.
I read these reviews from believers…
I can see why the found memories (like a small bushel of carrots) of being involved in that organization aren’t sufficient that I actually miss anything.
The overwhelming stench, that comprised the bulk of that experience is warding enough to keep me off the spiritual stuff for eternity. ;)
The latter is what is re-enforced as I browse through the comments at amazon.
I’ll definitely be reading this book soon!
Victoria Essex: “My general impression of the book is that Erin has a lot of fear. She is to be commended at some level for facing that. It was almost as if she wrote the book with one hand covering her eyes.”
Victoria,
In your feedback about Erin’s book, it seems that you believe that she did not go far enough in her criticisms of the church. As an ex-member who has read ‘Purely for Prophet’ (the manuscript) and ‘500 years’ and who has been helped tremendously by them, I understand your point, very much so.
I, also, champion Erin’s right be true to her own nature and experience in writing such a difficult book. I, so much, admire Erin for writing the book with her unique perspective of compassion and kindness to the people involved, including her mother. I don’t see her book as an attempt to tear anyone down or to expose the church for all of its wrongdoings as a holy mission or as an attempt to save others. That is why the book is so powerful. Of course, I have no idea what her motivation is, other than what she says in the book.
Erin’s story is personal and written with tremendous courage. To me, courage is acting in spite of the fear, and whatever fears may or may not still lurk in Erin, they do not taint the book or limit its powerful message, in my opinion. I was moved to tears several times during the reading of her book and am deeply impressed with her honesty and tremendous courage to reveal so much of herself. To me, her book is a labor of courageous love, not fear.
I couldn't put the book down and found it utterly fascinating. I think Erin was being quite kind in her approach. As a former staff member I can see why Joseph Genito wouldn't like the book, but hey Joseph as your former work partner, wake up and smell the roses, the ones you used to tend at the Ashram of the 'World Mother'. Hey Joseph lets talk about 'vibration', as in vibration of consciousness that only equates with the established cognitive norm set by a worshiped authoritarian figure who paraded around as your long lost mama. Cognitive dissonance will reject anything and everything not set by that imposter of a Masters messenger. You, my friend, and all CUT members who find offense at Erins' truthful, reserved and compassionate account, which I don't believe she has yet begun to grieve the full tragedy of her life, Wake Up!
Well done Erin, your mother was insane and had a court of insane people , looks like that for the postings, they have not recovered.
Where would they be without Mark, Elizabeth and the Church? Probably they woul’d have had to deal with themselves. Looks like they could not, until now.
Sean,
It’s been a while, 20+ years……… Still wearing your flamboyant little pink shirt ? Truthfully, never doubted your masculinity … did wonder about Capt. Cook.
Seriously though, I think it’s great that Erin is reconciling things about herself and her mother. It should be great therapy. I have to wonder if she read the ‘CUT vs MULL’ transcript. If she did maybe she should do it again.
There were other cases involving CUT that she should read…..one in Idaho, one in Montana and Randall’s case. His testimony, as you might know, was the unvarnished truth. He didn’t spare himself ….. he took responsibility for his actions, even when those actions were suspect. I only mention those cases so that Erin might truly understand how troubled her mother was. Just imagine if Elizabeth had used her abilities to benefit all of her followers.
Attorneys watch juries as best they can ……… I saw all but one juror repulsed by testimony about Elizabeth’s ‘masseurs’. People I never knew by name told me they saw that juror look with longing and envy at Elizabeth during that testimony.
I have to agree with Erin regarding Ken Klein……….good guy, good attorney, he might have done better though had he had the truth to work with.
As you know, it was your mother’s ego that gave birth to the CUT vs MULL trial. And, it was her, that created whatever a Murray Steinman is. Her conduct was her undoing. Even so, I’m left to wonder if what was done to Gregory by her came full circle and was her undoing. Karma ??????????????????????????????
Too much time has passed for animosities, so I wish you well……….
Larry,
Ha, ha, yes the pink shirt. Well, it was the ’80s after all. Glad I can laugh at myself now.
If you and Mull hadn’t come along, mom’s hubris would have caused her to step on someone else’s dignity a little too hard and it would have happened anyway in another time or place.
The irony is she could have settled with Mull for a pittance and been done with it. But she wasn’t that cynical. Her dogged adherence to her principles often made her unable to compromise. Truthfully I don’t think she could imagine a world where El Morya didn’t rule the day. When she lost, she couldn’t handle the implications. Maybe it was her karma of a sort–though I don’t really believe in any of that. Just in circumstances and consequences, which have a way of coming back to bite you.
I have no animosity toward you either. Life is a basically a series of behavioral feedback loops, and you happened to be in the right place to provide one for my mom. Since her members wouldn’t do it–someone had to.
Sean,
Just finished reading Erin’s book. To read it for most present or former church memberrs will surely entail submersion in an intense state of cognitive and emotional dissonance. It will bring up all kinds of past feelings and opinions. I am so glad she wrote it, so glad that you are speaking out, but I am somewhat dreading the next few weeks and its repurcussions. You can’t force people to be introspective or to reclaim an abnegated conscience, you can’t force people to live up to the ideal significance of their professed beliefs. Your mother successfully imposed a surreal drama on all of us, but we had to choose to accept it, or at least not choose to listen to our own misgivings. I spent the last seven years on staff doing everything to avoid going to absurd decree sessions and overt conflict with the fanaticism of other staff members, but the fear of being found out still reverberates in the hallways of my subconscious. My oldest son was deeply hurt by the unnecessary insertion of metaphysical fear for his soul at a very early age, and I know that I am in part responsible for his struggles in finding his identity.You cannot remain a part of the church for very many years without becoming broken in your identity, sick in your body , and utterly psychologically dependent on someone else to tell you what to do and who you are. At this point, who can fail to see the subliminal egoism that feeds every part of attachment to an heirarchical, super-objective spiritual path? Only those who don’t want to see it.
I am a little concerned about using my real name in your journal. My wife, Maureen, works for the Steinmans’
D.V.,
A so courageous, loving, honest, responsible, conscientous (the virtues r endless) of a Man, Father, Husband, to take responsiblity for ur son’s hurt. And for doing so ur son will w/ ur continued Love, find himself !
Parent’s don’t admit or hold themselves responsible as often as they should !
What u wrote was heart felt & so neccessary, thk u for doing so!
I grew up in the teachings from age 5, I’m 36 now. I’ve written a little on my experience here & there at BSJ. I’m recovering slowy, w/ out my Mother’s direct support. She supports me the only way she psychologicly can, w/ out feeling she’s making karma or feeding into my out of alighnment state these 15 yrs.
A parent’s or family’s role in a childs recovery from a “religous” state of confusion, is so vital to that child’s rediscovery of themselves, no matter how old they r !!!
I applaud u for writting what u did, even though u didn’t give ur name, u did reveal ur wife’s. So it took a load of gut’s to have open ur self to those who will attack u & r also members. What’s new w/ the human race. These types r everywhere!
Thk u again for ur piece!
Although I haven’t read it (work takes all my time and energy), I’d like to point out that people assume E’s “level of initiation.” I think this is a good place to bring up Mother’s “‘Assume’ means to make an ass of you and me.” There has been a lot of assuming by all. Not to excuse wrongs, but I do believe one of Mother’s great disappointments, and maybe even the cause of her early deterioration, was her great disappointment in some of her children, which, I believe again, she would acknowledge was at least partly her fault. I believe Mother’s central dilemma w/E was to be a mother to her daughter or to be a Guru, and she couldn’t handle the conflict. I just say to readers, CUT and non, to know there is a story beyond this one and that just because someone lives beside another does not mean they necessarily “know” that person. E never attended services or really actively participated in what Mother taught. (Just because you write about exercising doesn’t mean you exercise.) I believe Mother made her decision about E years before E figured it out (In fact, I don’t think she still has figured it out). I will say more later when it is appropriate. Now is not the time.
Hello David and all!
Me, too, have just read “the Book” and found it very meaningful. I have been a KOF/CUT member since 1976 and lived through the “shelter cycle” in Montana, preparing as most of us Glastonbury residents did at the time, for possible calamity.
David just wrote “You cannot remain a part of the church for very many years without becoming broken in your identity, sick in your body, and utterly psychologically dependent on someone else to tell you what to do and who you are.”
I read the guidelines for this forum and understand that logic and empirically verifiable knowledge are highly valued here (please bear with me if my English is imperfect, it is my second language and I haven´t used it much lately).
It seems to me as if David´s statement (nice to meet you again, btw) above could also be stated as “Everyone who has been a church member for many years (how many, David?) will suffer a broken identity, sickness of body and psychological dependence on someone else to tell him/her what to do and who he/she is.” This surely, then, must apply to myself also (member for 32 years). But, it really doesn´t. In areas of identity, health and independence I score pretty high. Which means you are wrong, right? Also, when I attended the CUT 2008 summer conference I met many long time members who seemed confident, radiant and healthy. Are you denying our existence for a reason?
More later
Bjorn
PS Life moves on – do you?
@David Vaughn,
Thanks for your courageous comment. My best to Maureen and your son. I completely understand what you are describing. Reading Dennett’s "Breaking the Spell" might help you.
@Bjorn,
What David is talking about is the period of darkness one goes through when one finally realizes one has abdicated one’s will and instincts to an external authority for no good reason. Especially when a person has spent years of their life in this unnatural state.
As long as you remain a believer, you would of course suffer no ill effects–or realize you had–since you have achieved the faith-generated reduction in anxiety. You have traded present-day for a future promise, and you have not yet found a reason to question whether or not that promise will be fulfilled.
After 32 years, you have left yourself really no way of getting out of the belief system, because then you would have to admit you’d spent a substantial portion, (maybe a third) of your life in a mistaken condition. Economists call this burden "sunk costs." Very few people have that kind of courage, and so will twist every concept of logic, ignore any evidence, and stubbornly cling to whatever it takes to justify the investment of time, energy, and consciousness. This is doubly true because it’s not just a protection against having wasted the 32 years of life spent, but also the infinite time you must imagine you will have in the afterlife. Take that promise away, and you are left with your human life–the "desert of the real."
It takes time, Bjorn, but you can populate that desert with flowers of your own design. Personally, I bank on no afterlife. If in the unlikely event I wake up on the other side–bonus round. No God or creator I’d have any respect for would ask me to anticipate what that bonus round might be like, or to espouse the teachings of some human who’d never been there. What makes you so sure CUT afterlife cosmology is correct, and not the Mormons, Scientologists, Islamics, or a thousand others?
What’s this fascination with "moving on?" Could it have anything to do with how inconvenient it might be to your 32-year investment to actually talk about the basis (or lack thereof) of your belief system?
@Cecelia,
What fantasy world are you living in? Erin was a stalwart "chela" for most of her life. Not only did she go to services, she led them–for years.
And what about this nasty little character smear–asserted without so much a shred of evidence:
So easy to make that kind of claim, where you dismiss inconvenient information with the wave of a hand and an ad hominem attack–and so predictable. Please don’t embarass yourself by talking about things you know nothing about.
David: “My oldest son was deeply hurt by the unnecessary insertion of metaphysical fear for his soul at a very early age, and I know that I am in part responsible for his struggles in finding his identity.You cannot remain a part of the church for very many years without becoming broken in your identity, sick in your body , and utterly psychologically dependent on someone else to tell you what to do and who you are.”
David, I so much relate to your experience. It is how I felt when I left the church (I still live at Glastonbury). And I have numerous dear friends with the same experience who, years after leaving, are still trying to piece together, their inner brokenness.
Many of us have had to return to the time before we came into this fear-and-shame trap called the teachings. We have had to retrieve so many spontaneous and alive parts of ourselves that got buried as we tried to shape and mold ourselves into something that we could never be.
My heart goes out to you as I contemplate my 18 years in the church starting at 17, leaving in 1998 after having read Schmook’s manuscript, and my very painful recovery work.
I am stunned by the insensitive disregard of members who say that they have “moved on”, but who are in such denial that they have not even begun their inner recovery work, and, therefore, they cannot relate to the pain and trauma of their brothers and sisters that they worked side by side with for years. I have experienced too many so-called ex-members shaming others because they are in pain, confused, angry and scared after having left the church. In self-righteous terms they berate others for not “moving on” like if that is now the latest spiritual ideal. Where is the love?
Regarding David’s comment: I have spoken with other ex-church, staff members who when they had children and left; and my theory is, that when you bring a child into the world, your intent is to love, protect and train them as best you can, and hopefully not damage them with your own problems. This is why so many children take the vow to not be like their parents when they have children. I think that the responsibility of having a child makes you re-think your own beliefs and what will help that child, even more so then our own self interest or esteem. If we chose alone to be part of the church and disregarded our intuition, that would be one thing, but to subject your child to it is another and is no different then subjecting them to other forms of abuse. Who would knowingly impose fear, paranoiah and anxiety on their child, I think it is mostly done ignorantly. Interestingly we all read psychology books at the church, we were “admonished” to heal our inner child and process our deep lymbic memories that caused pain and suffering. The really strange part about it is, that a lot of us recreated our childhood with the church, ECP, etc. and didn’t process our pain but we re-created because it was all we knew. Deconstruction is one way to heal our psychology. I think what I admire most about David’s comment is he and his wife’s realization that it would cause severe damage and chose to protect their child by not subjecting him to what they already knew was crazy making. Bravo. Once again, KOFs and some Staff were not privy, did not know and will probably never accept the extent of the problems. They could pick and choose because of their distance from the center.
Sean,
I pity those poor unfortunate souls who still don’t get it. Those who find fault with Erin for telling HER truth. Some pledged their lives and their fortunes to Elizabeth AND she got their ‘cojones’ in the process.
When will the biggest loser stand up and tell the truth …… ? I am referring to the one who was, no doubt, the biggest victim of undue influence. I sat across the table from him on a number of occasions. No one with his intellect would have acted as he did and/or said the things he did unless he was under undue influence.
EDWARD, come on down ……….. !
Does anyone else thinks that it is ironic that the TV show “The Biggest Loser” is filmed at the Camelot (Calabasas) campus? It just struck me funny last year when I recognized the surroundings.
Yes! I went there to visit recently and saw the set of The Biggest Loser and talked to some members of the crew. It’s highly ironic.
I just can't let this one pass. it's just THAT far out of line!
@ Cecilia
WTF! Just WOW. Thanks for pointing out something I'd not even considered relevant.
More inner meanings that can have value assigned arbitrarily because it is all imagined nonsense.
EX: Dishwasher A is an average Joe, just paying the bills taking the odd job. Dishwasher B is a high initiate fulfilling some cosmic purpose by washing dishes.
Is there any difference between A and B? On the inner, the difference is like night and day… on the surface… exactly the same… Cept B wants you to join his meditation group on the weekends and A wants you to join him for a drink.
Is B better? Only a fucking (spiritual) snob would need that answer to be yes.
Is B your preference? Boil it away and A is whom I'd like for company. A and B are just that, choices.
So anyway Cecilia, fill me in. What is Erin's level of initiation? And why exactly should I give a fuck?
If you assume that phrase originated with Mother, you'd be wrong.
I highlighted the parts where it says the belief is yours.
I also find it highly amusing (that's not assume, it's amuse) that Mother and Guru aren't synonymous, but a point of conflict in your mind. You might need to think about that one for a while…
To know the story, you kinda have to step up to the plate and swing… else it is all innuendo. I am sure you would like the reader to make a negative association with the vacuum you've created by the above statement, but frankly… it's vapors… hot air… blowing smoke. Unsubstantiated.
As someone who was involved in that movement for just shy of a decade, I can witness first hand Erin doing everything you claim she didn't. So from blowing hot air, to fabricating and flat out lies.
Well done! A plus!
You believe a lot of things.
Hmmm, I am going to go out on a limb here and hope Sean will allow this.
If this first effort is sign of what is to come from you… Save your breath. I have no time for a windbag gossip, who spews innuendo and fabrications. The Elitist tone of the spiritually privileged message doesn't exactly give you the best of footing to argue your points with either.
You can fuck directly off.
Welcome to planet earth and the world of karma everyone! As we can see the Prophet family is just like everyone elses on this planet ,we all got just about the same kind of problems as every other family.So we now know the Prophet family is not related to the Partridge Family.Obviously we live in a world of duality>>>>There is no up without a down>>in and out >yes and no>hot and cold>here and there>good and bad>black and white>he and she >male and female>tears and laughter>you and me>was i right or were you wrong>the beginning is the end .All those are just a few examples of duality .Im sure you probably heard them before.We all got to deal with the positive and negative on a daily basis in our lives.Using our 2 eyes ,2 ears,2 nostrils,2 arms ,legs,and hands to explain everything is being trapped in the world of duality we can only explain everything with a double tongue even though we only have 1.I was a big fan of Mrs Prophet but i didn’t follow her in a fanatical way and i still use the violet flame decrees from time to time.I remember i sent your mom a tape of a band called >Stryper>I AM the ressurection and the life of my finances and the U.S. economy.Maybe the words that come out of my mouth are completely empty and worthless or maybe they are filled and overflowing with meaning and purpose.I hope the Sun will Rise and Shine upon my Words or perhaps they will drift aimlessly around the orbit of the moon and sail away into deep infinite space to perhaps be heard by the ears of someone somewhere in someother world.
Ascended Master believers who write to this forum:
Erin is the clear still pond through which all now see the vivid reflection of your heart.
What are you trying to accomplish?
Sorry, Sean, I misread this, believing you had moved the highlighted posts from your other “Prophet’s Daughter” posting. I see you moved them from Amazon. Erin’s is clearly that pond of reflection for me.
I would ask Erin’s pundits to consider:
How much inner strength it took to for her refuse the mantle of Guruship, after being trained all her life with every expectation that this would be her life’s destiny.
What tremendous honesty and integrity it would take at a time when a large church was not only expecting, but demanding Guruship of her, to say the simple words: “I hear nothing,”
Yet, had Erin fabricated words under those circumstances it would have been profound disobedience to the very God the congregation wanted her to speak for.
It would require a person of immense training and discipline to do such a thing.
Have Erin’s Amazon pundits have ever passed such a test of obedience themselves?
OK. I get the point. There got to be a severe identity crises in such a case.
You are applying a stereotype on me, while knowing next to nothing about my approach to life, personality etc. Adherents of any belief system may be very different in how they relate to life (ranging from suicide bombers to extremely peaceful individuals within the same religion). I am not the person you are talking about. I realize that Life happens NOW and not in an unknown future.
Belief systems are of limited interest to me. I don´t think life is about belief systems and therefor I am not too attached to any. I have tried several: Atheism, communism, scientology, hinduism, etc and I have come to a point where I believe that Truth is not a belief system at all.
I have a rather strong sense of integrity and independence. To base my life on any doctrine would feel like giving up responsibility to remain in an immature and childlike state. It is almost breathtaking that you say
Do you claim to know that much about me and be in a position to judge me as having “wasted” 32 years of my life? This is an attitude I can only call arrogant. Did you know that I have 8 children – some of whom are adult and doing well in the world, others who seem well adjusted and happy in their school years. Is this a sign of a “wasted” life?
And that I work as a therapist and regurlarly help people with depression, crippling anxiety, burn-out etc back to a fulfilling life without handicapping psychological symptoms? Is this also proof of a wasted life? And that I have a happy and fulfilling relationship with my wife? More “waste”?
I find absolutely no fault with this. Rather the oppsite – I respect it and see it as an honest and possibly quite meaningful orientation.
Again you are stereotyping me. I am NOT so sure that the CUT afterlife cosmology is THE correct version (I don´t even believe ther IS a correct version in the mind of any living person).
I don´t mind talking about my or your belief system. But it might not be very productive. You have chosen atheism as your belief system and I have chosen monistic theism as mine. Neither of us can prove to the other that he is right. And why should we even try?
I am not against your belief system or science as a means to improve the quality of life. Perhaps we can happily and peacefully coexist and even work together to make this planet a better place.
Bjorn,
Sorry if I implied that 32 years of your life were “wasted.” What I meant is that if you spent that time in a mistaken belief in non-existent personalities which shaped your decision-making, you might have done things you otherwise wouldn’t have, and missed opportunities.
The whole discussion started with the comment from David Vaughn who seemed to feel that a number of years of his life in CUT were fraught with “abnegated consciousness,” and needless fears. You could say that he probably feels they were somewhat “wasted.” I always maintain that no time is wasted if we learn something. I just think that some methods of learning are better (faster) than others.
You may be in a well-adjusted place where your beliefs don’t impinge so greatly on your life. But my point here (and it is a stereotype, but stereotypes are always somewhat based in truth) is that if you hold strong beliefs about the supernatural and the afterlife, you will act on them and act differently than if you believed that your only life is in the here and now.
Regarding belief systems: It is not a belief if you stick to what can be proven. It is a characteristic of logic that we cannot prove a negative. But that does not mean we cannot establish with a very high degree of probability that the Judeo-Christian God does not and never did exist. With all the money and power concentrated in churches, and no one has ever been able to come up with a single shred of proof? How likely is it that some proof will emerge in our lifetimes? (The same can be said for Ascended Masters)
What can also be proven is that belief in various versions of God has caused no end of conflict and bloodshed throughout the world.
I suggest you read my 2 articles on The Tyranny of Belief.
The main point of contention with you Bjorn, is that you came here with the idea of discrediting people who were speaking out, starting with my sister and David Vaughn–telling them to “move on.” To a certain extent, most believers do use stereotypical arguments. So perhaps I overreached in placing you in the category of having “wasted” 32 years. But you did start out with a very strong thrust of an argument saying “You can’t prove it’s not…” which is about as stereotypical as it gets.
Now you’ve backed down and said you’re more of an agnostic. Well that’s fine, but it’s still pretty clear you believe in many things without evidence.
I also am wondering about what you call “monistic theism.” Though some religious traditions claim to be monistic, certainly CUT would not be one of them. And this position in any case would be inconsistent. The so-called monistic religions’ have failed to undertake empirical observations of claimed deities. How is an unobservable deity different from a supernatural or non-existent one? Claims of monism ring hollow.
If you on the other hand claim that the spirit world is the only “real” existence and all matter is illusion, you are even worse and more disconnected than a dualist.
You may have noticed I haven’t done this very often, but I felt compelled in light of my appreciation for Erin’s book’s honesty. Please don’t infer that my opinions are my wife’s. I’m speaking for myself. I very much appreciate Catherine’s and Nina’s comments. Life changes when you have children- the world is not black and white any more, and in some ways you learn how to love yourself by loving another so very much. As for Bjorn- Hi, Bjorn! You’re right to a degree. When I reread my comment it seemed hyperbolic. I’m really talking mostly about myself, but I’m not worried that others feel attacked when I make a forceful statement. It’s their chance to prove their warrior mettle.
You may have noticed I haven’t done this very often, but I felt compelled in light of my appreciation for Erin’s book’s honesty. Please don’t infer that my opinions are my wife’s. I’m speaking for myself. I very much appreciate Catherine’s and Nina’s comments. Life changes when you have children- the world is not black and white any more, and in some ways you learn how to love yourself by loving another so very much. As for Bjorn- Hi, Bjorn! You’re right to a degree. When I reread my comment it seemed hyperbolic. I’m really talking mostly about myself, but I’m not worried that others feel attacked when I make a forceful statement. It’s their chance to prove their warrior mettle – the Bhagavad Gita and all that. My concern is for those who realize or are on the verge of realizing that their lives have become inauthentic. No one can choose to be authentic- there’s absolutely no need to- but you can choose to cease being inauthentic. That hollow feeling, the internal argument you get over your every word, the ceaseless effort to prove that you are, in fact, what you say you are, these are the signs that you have given your conscience to another person or thing to keep you safe and “in alignment”. A real teacher knows these things and teaches to your authenticity. That teacher knows when you are posing, being sycophantic, denying the best part of yourself, or submitting to an external control. But if you are a mere believer, you won’t care about any of this- you’re entirely wrapped up in the certainty of your belief. When belief takes precedence over the truth of individual experience, that is the recipe for fundamentalism.
So Bjorn, I’ll grant that you are who you say you are- how could I deny it? But as for myself, my polemic is with my own inauthenticity.
Thanks for the reading tip, Sean. Keep up the good work.
How did we all get into this mess in the first place? We all made free will choices that led or brought us together into this forum,For Better or For Worse we are all in this together.Lets not blame Mrs Prophet for our troubles and tribulations since we of our own free will have chosen to be in the presence of mrs prophet.In other words,Mrs Prophet was not forced into our reality but we all made choices that brought Mrs Prophet into our reality in order to teach us a certain aspect of reality.So for everyone who is blaming Mrs Prophet for your troubles, remember you made choices that brought Mrs Prophet into your life.No, she is not perfect ,she has weaknesses just like all of us but she is not the reason for any troubles we may be expereinceing.Mabe she did try to force her religious beliefs upon her children which may have been one of her weaknesses, but instead of forcing our religious beliefs upon our children ,we should encourage them to find or discover their own belief system,Whether we like it or not!Though i would have to say that Mrs Prophet was under more stress than any of the political and religious leaders of our time and perhaps thats what did her in,or put her in the posistion that she is now in.So remember for all those out there that are blaming Mrs Prophet for their problems,we all made choices that brought us all together and we have no one to blame but ourselves for the choices we made.You all made a choice to bring Mrs Prophet into your lives ,She did not force her way into your life.Figure it out for your self!
Michael,
That logic can be applied to women who become stuck in abusive relationships enticed by their partner’s seductive promises of love and happiness. There is a cycle of shame that kicks in, in such relationships, a shame that was probably already internalized through early childhood. The abuser, deliberately, uses shame and blame to erode the self-esteem of their partner and it keeps the abused partner in too low self-confidence to cut themselves lose and leave. Just because the battered woman stays with her husband with all the psychological terror and shame involved, does that absolve the husband of responsibility? Is the woman to be blamed for the abuse even if she stays and enables it.
As a new Keeper, in love with the teachings, I certainly did not know about the following which if I had known about it, I would not have joined: the second death as a threat for leaving the teachings; the collective punishment of any wayward members (no one was allowed to talk to them); the public shaming that happened periodically of some unlucky staff member for some infraction, designed to keep us in line; the endless and crushing demands for perfection and purity that we could not live up to as we strove for our ascension and karma balancing; the demand for us to save the planet and self-sacrifice to the degree of feeling guilty about fulfilling any personal needs that did not comply with the overall needs of the church; the endless mind-numbing decrees that taught us to numb natural human instincts, reactions and emotions judged to be dark, negative and karma-making.
Yes, we chose this affiliation. However, after the initial seduction, we gradually sank into a deeper and deeper shame cycle that certainly did not make us feel free to just leave if we did not like what we got. For many of us, leaving was one of the most courageous acts of our lives due to the above. I take full responsibility for my choice in joining and staying for 18 years. What I have learned is invaluable, and I am grateful. However, it does not justify the spiritual abuse and manipulation that happened.
This is addressing Michael’s comment:
I’m not personally blaming ECP for my involvement. I knew what my early choices were, but like Nina said I didn’t see the manipulation when I joined staff in 75′ . I did deny my intuition for close to 15 years in staying (by the way after I left I still attended conferences for another 5 years). With a resounding YES, in a way she did force her beliefs, it was the manipulation of being treated as special–being pulled in, listening to heavenly dictations, all the promises of balancing karma and making our ascension, ECP had an amazing talent for spotting the hot button of people (similar to sales people that you hear about all the time that take advantage of people), and then when they were hooked then all hell would break loose. I have over and over again taken responsiblity for my choices and am amazed at how much I denied my nature, but just having my 21st birthday and joining staff did not give me a lot of wisdom. I even imitated ECP in my interactions with many people for many years. She yelled at me one day “I am going to make you the best stoic possible”, as if all of me had to go and for her to be able to stand me. Not until all of the promises did not to come to fruition, and the burden of manipulation stopped did I realize how awful I was and have worked on regaining my “authentic self” as David puts it.
In addition I don’t think that this discussion is centered on people that have regained their identity–she didn’t ruin my life, but she sure made it hell in so many ways I can’t tell you. I think that what you are reading are people indivuating in a real way and recognizing their involvement and the ultimate choices that they have to make to be happy and sharing it for input.
Like all other people, we want to take care of those that could not withstand the abuse (the poor and helpless) and in fact, the actions of ECP did ruin some of their lives. We could argue that everyone had free will and could have left at any time—that is categorically not true. Perhaps you didn’t see how at least 100 staff members were kicked-out during my tenure on staff and then we would all hear about their past lives as some devil person that eventually would go through the second death. By the way, this happened the first month I was on staff, it definitely gave me pause and built up over the years that I didn’t want to be one of those staff members, so I became more and more obedient and “devout” as she called me. I know that you will say, well you have a psychological problem–yes we all do, fortunately I am healing.
By the way, it was not only religious or spiritual beliefs that she forced on us, it was much more damaging then that, it was absolute obedience to a leader that was completely contradictory from one day to the next, and completely manipulated her own children (I know) and made arbitrary rules for the regular staff and the rulers of the community and reinforced daily these made up rules–if you want to call that religion, so be it. That is a dictatorship, why don’t you ask the followers of Sadam if they could have left (by the way, this is not to say that we would be killed, but in some way, giving yourself over for 15 years and then being kicked out for a minor infraction is like being executed). I could give so many more personal experiences that would be considered abuse, but it is not worth it, these stories are only to prove my point, I don’t consider myself a victim. I can only say that you have to turn off your intelligence, nature and intuition to endure it, but like you said I made a choice. All being said and done, there’s the rub.
The very fact that some may see themselves as victims, or are still trying to heal their psychology from the experience does not deny that they suffered. I don’t think it is helpful or compassionate to blame the whole thing on the people that followed by saying that they made choices and somehow magically ECP can be absolved because of the stress that she was under. Self-created stress I might add. In addition what about the stress of her staff, working 16-18 hours a day, not being able to eat in her presence, etc, etc. etc. then perhaps you can excuse them too, and while you are at it, excuse everyone because the whole world is under stress.
I am glad to have so much emotional and psychological fodder for growth, but that doesn’t give people the right to misuse or abuse me. Wisdom is learned from these experiences– in other words I won’t do that again!
By the way, David say hi to Maureen for me, hope all is well with you, besides your processing.
For me it’s just simple responsibility & holding that person or the persons accountable for what they did, failed to do & caused in so many people’s lives, espeacially in these people’s children’s lives!! Not blame!
David V, I wrote too = ( ?
Peace & Love,
AmenAS
Sean,
I have the following question that, like Larry above, feel Edward should “come on down” too for his involvement in not only supporting ur Mother but being part of her for as long as he did. Why haven’t u mentioned any opinions on Edward?
Personaly I never liked him since I first saw his photo, when I was only 7 1/2. Didn’t know him but I didn’t like him, as I didn’t like ur Mother the first time I saw her on one of the Conference pamphlets my Mom was looking at on our dinner table when I was 5. Things change when time passes & seem to be misconceptions, but now for me I look at this as evidence to human instinct & intuition.
I figure since Edward is alive & well, w/ the care of ur little brother, his son, u have chosen to refrain from any commenting towards him that is hurtful, damaging & in direct affect to ur yet so young brother. Also I’m curious to the queation if Edward is raising sweet Seth in his Mother’s Teachings?
P.S. Did u remember about the shampoo incident after reading my comment in the bk review post? I forgot it till I started typing, it’s funny how things come bk the way they do.
Sorry Sean, my bad, forgot to say Hello = ) !
[…] Joseph Genito is a man I’ve known from the time I was a child. He has been a member of the CUT community for most of his life, and for many years held menial jobs such as groundskeeper or kitchen worker. I had not seen nor heard from him for more than 15 years. Then my sister’s book Prophet’s Daughter was published, and he and his wife Virginia orchestrated a chain email slandering my sister and her book (previous article). […]
Blorn, hi
Iremember you and all of your family from my CUT years
you were a great family and Iremeber you were all very involved in the Teachings (if Iam not mistaken)!
I understand your point of view since it was my own for many years abnd Irespect it
unfornutanately it took me many years to “move on” from the years in CUT and itwas difficult, especially because I did not have much help never as m elnd pur Catherine and others have put it very well : Iagree most of us came into the Teachings because at some point we made the decision, but what attracted most people-inluding myself- was the spirituel community, the spiritual teachings, the sense of fullfiling a greater purpose
I was 25 years old at the time – now 50- and did not know much about life
worse : I came rom a very disfinctionnal family with many types of abuses, so Iid not have a clear understanding of life and how a child raised in an abusive family is likely to “fit in” into other abusive relationships because of his dammaged psychology
I understant g his links
sorry wrong button, I will start again
Sean, please post the following post only , thks
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Bjorn, hi
I remember you and all of your family from my CUT years
you are a great family and I remember you were all very involved in the Teachings (if I am not mistaken)!
I understand your point of view since it was my own for many years and I respect it
indeed you seem to have accomplished many wonderful things in yoir life – more than I did myself – and all of us did not live the CUT years in the same way
unlike you, I have departed from my old beliefs in CUT and went back to when I first entered the Church, which was at age 25 (Ileft at 38 in 1998 or so)
so 13 years of CUT : the result is : my years when I could have married and raised children are gone
why ? because unlike other people, some part of me – my “healthy boundaris” I guess, or my critical self, or my instict, told something was wrong with the whole scheme
in others words : Iwanted to live, but could not because the inner conflict was to great the conflict was : if I live, I will miss out my divine plan aitloose an opportunity for ascension, will be back into the astral plane,etc etc
now I realize allthese believes ycetc rgxgbut Ighekhoirh
now I agifornutanately it took me many years to “move on†from the years in CUT and it was difficult, especially because I did not have much help never as m elnd pur Catherine and others have put it very well : Iagree most of us came into the Teachings because at some point we made the decision, but what attracted most people-inluding myself- was the spirituel community, the spiritual teachings, the sense of fullfiling a greater purpose
I was 25 years old at the time – now 50- and did not know much about life
worse : I came rom a very disfinctionnal family with many types of abuses, so Iid not have a clear understanding of life and how a child raised in an abusive family is likely to “fit in†into other abusive relationships because of his dammaged psychology
I understant g his links
Sorry again, , I will do better next time, I don’t type well and English is not my first language
I always hit the post button before I am done !
—————————————————————————
Sean, please post the following post only !!!
——————————————————-
Bjorn, hi
I remember you and all of your family from my CUT years
you are a great family and I remember you were all very involved in the Teachings (if I am not mistaken)!
I understand your point of view since it was my own for many years and I respect it
indeed you seem to have accomplished many wonderful things in your life – more than I did myself – and the conclusion is : all of us did not live the CUT years in the same way
unlike you, I have departed from my old beliefs in CUT and went back to who I was when I first entered the Church, which was at age 25 (I left at 38 in 1998 or so)
so 13 years of CUT : the result is : my years when I could have married and raised children are gone, and I have lost a lot of opportunities
unlike other people in CUT, some part of me – my “healthy boundaries†I guess, or my critical self, or my instinct – told something was wrong with the whole scheme of CUT and that I could not marry someone in the Church : it did not feel right for me ;
BUT : because of my involvement with CUT, I could not marry someone outside the Church as well
So I was stuck ; this summarizes my problem while in CUT
Also, I was not happy living in the US, struggling for a living, far from home (Europe)
In others words : part of me I wanted to live the church, but could not because the inner conflict was to great ;
and the conflict was : if I leave, I will miss out my divine plan , I will loose an opportunity for ascension, will be back into the astral plane, etc etc all that you and me were told
now I realize all these fears were engrained in me to prevent me from leaving, and to better control me (like in all other cults : scientiology, Moon, Jehova’s witness,etc)
it is the same mechanisms that is used by manipulators at the workplace or in a couple ;
I have become an expert about what happens in manipulative relationships, and believe me, I see them coming now
so this is the part that is wrong : manipulating people against their own will, using their weaknesses and pains, for someone’s own benefit
this is how I lived 13 years of my life in CUT : always in struggle inside , in pain, because in doubt and fear ; it was not healthy by any means, and it damaged my health to this day
it took me years to recover my sense of identity , AND I went through major depression because it hit me that the whole teaching in CUT was a delusion
PLUS : I had to pick my life from where I first entered CUT : at 25 years old, and had to face and resolve the problems I had then : being raised in an abusive family
BUT : all the time I was in CUT I seemed happy and balanced and fulfilled
it was a superficial look that I knew very well how to play and that worked as long as I projected all of my own “darkness†into the “world†;
the day this ended, my own “darkness†(pains and wants from my early childhood, basic human desires, like being at peace , a normal sexuality, etc) hit me the hard way
since you are a therapist, I guess you will understand this
if you research and give it a closer look, you will probably one day realize you were also a victim of an abusive “systemâ€
greetings and blessings to all,
Amina
Sean,
Read the whole book and I loved it, hated, I was disgusted, moved, informed, shocked !
Erin did an amazing and honest work with this book. A must read for my previous pals from the SL. Many people paid a great price for following false prophets, prophecies., plain lies. Nobody to blame but themselves. Time for all of us to wake up and smell the roses of reality, reason and common sense.
I missed an apology from Erin…she was the one who ‘heard the voices from an imaginary Morya’ and told her mother about imaginary doom dates, survival years and who knows what else..the apology should be directed to the herd (her own words), not to me who never believed in the shelter fiasco. I wonder what happened with the rest who ‘believed’ the bullshit. It is beyond me.
Arturo
Arturo, I follow you in your remarks about the “apology”,
a true and sincere “apology” from all people involved in CUT hierarchy, including other people like board members,etc, would help many of us heal and move on …
but I doubt we ever get it
it’s like waiting for an apology from your own parents about what they did or not during our early years
it never works just as we would dream to
in fact we would all love to hear a sincere apology from all people who have wronged us
but for some reason it seldom happens
I think it has to do with not knowing exactly what the others expect, ot not wantinh to take too much responsibility fir things people do in a particular context , when they are trying to do the best they can
don’t count on it, most ex CUT officials don’t really care enough to try to guess what would be healing for most of us
in the other hands, one must learn to interprete facts : Sean has already apologized in some ways with this journal, and Erin’s apology is …her entire book !!!
it’s already more than I would have expected
let’s take the SYMBOLIC apology
APOLOGY:
Arturo, Amina, and other former CUT and SL members…
As a former member of the Board of Directors, and as someone who lived very close to ECP, and as one who for a time supported the outflow of the messenger’s message, and to the extent i am in a position to do so, many years after the fact, i hereby do apologize for my own role and for the role of others who unwittingly participated from a position of responsibility. With the clarity of hindsight looking back, to those whose lives were dramatically affected, i think i share the sense of remorse that others share, those who now see how off the mark many of the edicts and rules and revelations were. It is sad to hear you wondering where the apologies are, and why have there been none. Well, here is one person saying, I am sorry for the pain and the wasted time and the misguided admonitions, and the personal reprobations and insults and rants and raves that came so often to people who were so dedicated to the one who held the highest office. My proximity to the central source of the organization brought me to the precipice of lifelong attachment to she who in the end admitted to Sean her sorrow, but whch came too little, too late for the thousands who were left penniless, homeless, shifting in the wind of uncertainty, and left to their own to pick up the broken pieces to start life anew.
This is a good start. One apology. More should come. To hide behind some fantasy, illusion, atheism, new found religion and more excuses won’t do. More apologies are do big time from the deluded and crasy ones who were praying Bomb, Bomb, Bomb America! Builted a $20 millions bucks shelter for…nothing! What a freaking insanity, man!
And you be might be right, Amina, do not expect anything for the nuts in charge of the Ranch.
The so called Ranch in Montana should be sold and the money given back to ones who lost their shirts, and more in this fiasco.
HS? Harry? or who are you, anyway? Nice apology though…
Arturo
@H.S., Thanks for offering the apology. I think it’s very meaningful and a huge deal given who you are. The more those who participated can come to terms with what happened, the better the chance of healing. As for me, I wrote an email in about 2000 to a KOF/CUT list which had been going at the time. I offered a strong mea culpa for my part in the CUT dysfunction.
Since then I have probably not apologized often enough or clearly enough. In this site I talk about a lot of other people’s shortcomings. But it is always with full knowledge of my own.
On the about page and in numerous articles, I acknowledge my responsibility and my remorse. But clearly not everyone is going to go back and read all those.
So I hereby repeat the apology: I’m sorry to any and all CUT staff or members for the part I played in maintaining the delusions and manipulations of the organizational power structure while I was on the board of directors. Though I was young and not fully aware of what I was doing, I should have known better. I should have valued people more and understood the difficult nature of what was being asked of them (“chelaship”). Instead I often took people for granted and treated them with mild disdain and a sense of entitlement. I was wrong, and I apologize.
@Arturo, I’m assuming you’re referring to me hiding behind atheism? Not sure what you mean by that. I understand that not everyone who leaves CUT is going to become an atheist. That’s a personal decision. But for me, repudiation of the ascended masters leaves me no reason to believe in other gods. They’re all imaginary as far as I’m concerned. But if believing and worshiping helps people feel better about themselves, or establish their group identity–so be it.
That’s why we have freedom of religion, and I would never advocate changing that. Your statement about the Ranch took the words right out of my mouth. I have often said that the Ranch should have been run with stakeholders. If a person was to be kicked out, they would have to have been bought out, by returning any money they had donated and/or compensating them for their time spent. This would have created some accountability, and allowed for two-way information flow. It would have made CUT leadership think twice before summarily dismissing anyone.
I was now aware you ever apologied, Sean. Now I know you had and have done it again. Take balls and heart to do so. By your sister book I do understand now more deeply the
shit we were involved and how blind all of us were. Your sister has done a great service to tell the TRUTH. Too bad that your mother did not have the heart and the mind to stand in front of her followers and explain the shelter fiasco, her teachings, to tell the truth…the simple TRUTH. ‘People, I misslead you all!”
Not my friend, not bs intend in your path..it is your choice and I salute you.
Religion should be abolished frorm the face of the earth!! It has been the curse for this planet with its dogmas, churches and evil priesthood of any domination.
As far I am concern you are in the right path of liberation, reason and common sense, Sean, from the bullshit, lies of man’s creation called religion!
Arturo
Sean,
As you know my tenure on the Board of Directors was before the Shelter fiasco. But for those who might be interested in why i sincerely wanted to offer my own apology, one of the primary things i am sorry about is the hesitancy to object loudly and directly to ECP when i witnessed, close up, how she would dismiss abruptly and painfully those staff who had previously dedicated their lives, fortunes, energy, and futures into her hands. At the time i was caught up in the sense of service, not specifically to her as an exalted person, but to an ideal, and to those in the world who might benefit from learning how to elevate their spirits in their own lives. I was there on too many occasions when a longtime staff member, after years of profound dedication, would be ousted for the smallest infraction when seen in the context of their overall performance, and would then be viewed as an outcast to be shunned. That always for me was excruciating, and i was close enough to ECP to say, no dont do that, do not berate that person, and do not dismiss them…and if you do, bestow on them a stipend or severance worthy of their service. Somehow it just happened that when those dismissals occured, nobody dare question, and most just cowered in the background, wondering if and when their own head would be chopped. Those times for me were the worst, and though i really dont think she would have listened to me or anyone else when the heat of her ego flashed out in sudden rejection of a staff member, it was crushing for me to see it happen. You really brought a key concept forward in your recent message…that a system of "stakeholder" should have been implemented, so that she could not and would not have so callously brushed off and sent packing so many wonderful people, many without any money, broken in spirit, no job in the world, and needing to rebuild a life with no help and after so many years of service. So, yes, i am sorry that even though i was at her side when some of those horrible things happened, i just allowed her to carry on and i watched without adamantly objecting….
@ Arturo…. Believed in the bomb shelters? Well, some of us were sort of applying Pascal’s Grid to all of this. Plus, it was sort of an interesting exercise in group dynamics. Plus, all my friends were doing it.
@Catherine: Appreciated your comments about domestic abuse — it can be very difficult for someone to extricate themselves from a relationship that is manipulative. Some people came into the church with a self-awareness and self-esteem that could be manipulated by stronger personalities. After a while, it was harder and harder to break free. The threats were enormous. The Second Death, thousands of additional years of karma, tipping the world balance, causing the Messenger to suffer. Everything bad that could happen became the personal fault of the bad chela. At least, a lot of us internalized it this way. And anyone who had been on staff for years and given up everything had very little to fall back on if they were sent away. And, yes, we were all aware that this could happen at any time. Since there was no one that was ‘good’ (but God), any of our minor faults could bring the ax down at any moment, and I think we all knew this, from the top all the way down to the bottom.
@Black Sun — About the need to apologize — One summer you did an ‘Expose’ on Rock and Roll. I had an infant, and we were all kicked out of the Heart of the Inner Retreat because it was ‘too dangerous’ for mothers and children to remain there. I later managed to sneak a listen to your lecture (it was supressed to young mothers and new people by the local study group). I found it entertaining but didn’t find it particularly dire — although it better helped me understand the decrees and inserts we did at a later time. A few years ago, I saw a written statement by you indicating an appreciation of the work that musicians undertook in their craft, and an apology for that lecture. That helped me quite a bit. I love all types of music, and it’s been a pure pleasure to be able to play it again and listen and share all the various musical disciplines with others, and to study music theory again. I love the mathematical precision of music. It’s an amazing language, isn’t it?
The work you have done over the passing years has been enough of an apology, and to me it seems to be a sincere way to compensate for any wrongs that you feel you may have perpetrated on anyone (if you feel that way at all).
Most of us who were involved with the organization have said or done things that weren’t right or hurt someone else. It is painful to think that I did not have stood up for the rights of those who were oppressed or who were attacked and needed comforting and assistance, or the ones that were forgotten because they had no money or were too old or sick to actively participate anymore. I guess we could all apologize over and over again. I signed up plenty of new people to become KOF — I started study groups in Oregon and Idaho. To what outcome? It’s completely out of my control now, I suppose.
How we choose to live and love and share from here forward will have to be our way of repaying any past harm. I guess life is about living it well where we are.
Marshall K. Haley……..???
Will get the nomination for the drooling poster child of mind controlled intellectuals.
From the way he twists and plays with language he will probably be over looked by the committee because he is so full of himself.
It is often amazing how "loving" and judgmental these over educated piles of s… can be. There is a self righteous attitude that transcends even the best of politicians.
Marshall if you are offended is is your choice, look in the mirror.
Many have chosen to be free and then there are the others who continue to be trapped in their own fear.
Hello Everybody!,
Well after reading Erin´s book my conclussion:
Even if it is true all what she says there, I dont see enough evidence that would lead to the conclussion of the reality or unreality of the teachings and of the Mantle of Elizabeth Clare Prophet. Thanks to Erin we have an broadened vision of what happened, nevertheless today thank´s to her I believe even more in the Ascended Masters and in the Messenger. Sean, you are indeed very smart, and I can see how intelligent you are, but TRUE WISDOM lies not in your head….
Back in 2003. I become involved with CUT''s Summit Lighthouse focus that used to be located in Irving, Texas. I met some very nice people there and was intrigued with the unique message that Mark and Elizabeth Prophet had. I was ill and looking for some answers in life as to why so many different things were going on in the world today, to me, and to people who I loved, or those I heard or read about in difficult situations. I thought I had found an organization that could provide me with some answers and give me peace.
At first I was very into it, but then I started getting these mass emails from members in CUT who I did not know. I must have got on some type of email to all address list. Well, the things that I were reading in these emails were people who were not happy campers, so to speak. Some of the contents bothered me very much, so I went to one of the leaders in Summit Lighthouse about this. I was told that these were people who had always been problems from the very beginning, were jealous because they did not get a certain position that they wanted,, or just had an axe to grind. I told myself, well this happens in any religion, organization, or company.
But I was a retired paralegal and that research bug in me NEEDED ANSWERS!!! So for quite some time I researched everything that I could find out on the Internet with the name Mark Prophet, Elizabeth Prophet, CUT, Summit Lighthouse in it and I came up with some disturbing answers to my questions. I found out that these so-called troublemakers had legitimate complaints.
Since I worked in the judicial system for most of my working career the sense of justice is important to me. To find out the truth. There were all kinds of lights, bells, and whistles going off in my head telling me I needed to keep on researching. That things were not as rosey as everyone would like you to think in CUT. I came across a Cult Studies Journal on the Internet that discussed John Joseph Pietrangelo, Jr.'s book, "Lambs to the Slaughter: 14 Years with Elizabeth Clare Prophet". Well, that sure knocked my socks off when I read that! But I needed more confirmation. I had a long ways to go.
I then ordered a book titled, "The Church Universal Triumphant: Elizabeth Clare Prophet's Apocalyptic Movement", written by Bradley C. Whitel. He was very objective and opened the window just a little more for me to see, but I still needed more information.
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I am having to post twice in a row as I was told by the website that I needed to split my comments up. So this is a continuation of the above post.
I finally got a copy of Kenneth and Talita Paolini's book, "400 Years of Imaginary Friends: A Journey Into The World of Adepts, Masters, Ascended Matters". For those who are interested Amazon .com is now selling it for around $59.00. I ordered it January 22, 2013, so you can finally get it once again. They also sell it at ABE Books.com, but their prices are much higher. Anyway, folks it was an eye opener! All the scales were completely fallen from my eyes and only confirmed what I had felt deep inside of me all this time. The truth rang loud and clear and the story that was told was of two people who were there, what they experienced, and what they saw. There was no axe to grind. So, it was another confirmation to me that I was on the right track in backing out of this organization. Actually, I had slowly withdrawn myself, but remained on talking turns with a couple of members.
Erin may not remember me, but somehow I got her email address many years back and sent her a message. I told her about my concerns. I wanted some info straight from the horses mouth, as some say. I was made aware of her situation only briefly. She gave me an idea or two. I encouraged her to write a book. That I felt it was very important to people who would come across this organization and have knowledge of what truly went on in it. How there were many people who sacrificed and were hurt deeply within their spirit, by the things that were done to them. So thanks Erin for finally writing this book! By the way, what Erin has to say only confirms what Kenneth and Talita wrote about. Their stories match.
So I bought Erin's book and it confirmed everything that Kenneth and Talita Paolini said in their book. Only Erin was right at the top with ECP, while the members who volunteered and were not staff were at the very bottom and was not aware of all that went on. But Kenneth being a body guard to Elizabeth was much closer to her than some other members may have been so he really observed a lot. And Talita and him wanted a better life for themselves and their child. There was no axe to grind and there were no lies that was told.
I am thankful that I got out of this group before I had become one of the many wounded soldiers. What really bothers me is how some members, when provided with all this truth will still refuse to believe that all was not well at CUT. They idolized ECP then and still continue to do so now. It is hard to have to face up to the truth that someone who you once believed in so much had as many problems as who did, maybe even many many more. Once you do that then you have to examine your own life and see where possibly you were swayed the wrong way and maybe did not make some good decisions yourself.
I hope this post will give people all of the information that I came across in my research and that it will help them.
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I forgot to list one more bit of research that I found. A book titled, "Psychic Dictatorship In America" By Gerald B. Bryan. It is rare to find, but I managed to locate a First Edition (which makes the book 73 yrs. old, but it is in very good shape) In it Bryan exposes Guy and Edna Ballard who started the "I AM Movement". As I understood it, Mark Prophet took a lot of his material from them when starting his own movement. This book can be found at ABE Books.com, but it is not cheap. I felt it was worth it, since I wanted to find as much material as I could in how Mark and Elizabeth Prophet and their teachings came about. There were law suits against Guy Ballard concerning fraudulent use of the mail. There were also law suits that Guy had to deal with where he stole little old ladies of their lives savings. Guy and Edna were nothing but charlatans. So much for a movement professing to have an open channel to the Masters.
I believe that I have entered all the research that I found. I hope that people will take the time to read it.
Susan
I think our messengers transferred free thinking to their offspring. I read this book and much of it I found to be very interesting! Toward the end though I felt sick and sad and couldn't shake that feeling for a week. I told Erin in an e-mail how I was affected by her book and she responded to me in a very compassionate way. The sick and sad feeling left me.
Hi Doris,
I found Erin's book full of compassion and was amazed at the restraint that she had communicating all that she knew, went through, and spoke of in her book. She did not look at everything as right/white, or wrong/black, but rather she looked at all the various shades of grey that are also in our lives and in her book.
It is heart rending to read such a book and it does leave you feeling bad. I know that I went through some changes when I was first researching ECP, but I made it through it. You just cannot turn your back on the truth. It is important to face up to it.
I am glad that you were able to email Erin and that she was able to help you through the changes you were experiencing.
Susan
I am working my way through these comments after just ordering Erin's book – waiting eagerly to read it. I was never part of CUT but had been working with an 'offshoot' group?? There is a guy that knew ECP who left the Ranch at some point but counseled many people over the phone even though he has no credentials to be a counselor. I found out about him through a co-worker and started sessions to help me with depression. Next thing you know I'm being told about all these whacky teachings I'd never heard of. But the guy was so smart and so convincing I got deeper in.
After 6 years of private sessions and classes on "the teachings" with this guy I finally started to question when he gave me some really really off guidance to stay in a very abusive relationship saying it was my karma to save the soul of this drug addicted manipulator. That was it, once I started questioning I was out – he refuses to talk to me or return my phone calls. I've suffered extreme PTSD from it all. His associates and other students staunchly defend him and say he owes me nothing. This blog and these comments are helping me to see the fear mongering – all his predictions on 2012 and beyond, all with the subtext "unless you're in my elitist group you may not be saved". At times it's reminded me of Hitler – who also thought it was his mission to "save Terra". How can these people be so invested in such altruistic ideals and treat others so abusively? It's the worst thing I've ever experienced. I'm grateful for the opportunity to connect with others who have experienced similarly via this forum.
All I know is that The Teachings of the Ascended Masters are the best ever. Thanks to Guru Ma and Beloved Ascended Master Lanello to be obedient to do God's Will. Erin, had to wait until her Mothers death to do her dirty work the fallen ones love to there dirty work and condemn the Children of God even at death. They feel the need for attention because they realized that is the only time they can be heard because that is how the devil and fallen ones are they cannot stand the light and know that they will be judge at the end of there life. Erin this message is to you there is a end to evilness but no end to goodness. Have a nice ride